Original Octagon to Round Smoothbore Profiles

[LynnC]

What I'm trying to come up with is a profile that represents a true late 18th century fowler barrel for a project I'd like to build.  (American fowler, New England influence with English barrel)

In a previous post, Mike Brooks mentioned that english barrels generally were heavy at the breech, tapering quickly in the first 5-6", and somewhat long in the octagonal section.  I'm guessing the second taper ending forward of the wedding band and the chase being pretty much straight unless flaired at the muzzle.  The one original fowler I have fits this description - But one is just not enough of a sample to go by.

The of the shelf profiles of today don't seem to fit the above description.  Too long in the tapers making for a rather weighty barrel.

Has any one taken any measurements from originals that might help me find the taper break points and diameters of an 18th century barrel?

I would very much appreciate any input....................Lynn

[James Rogers]

How about the Colerain Griffin fowler barrel that is from the profile of a Griffin fowler?

[Dave B]

Here are two different barrels from fowlers one flint American pre rev and the other 1850 English. The first measurement is the length from the breach to the point at which the profile of the barrel is measured.
American Pre-Revoulutionary
Barrel length 39.5" .664 Cal. full stock
breach= 1.30, 12"= .948,  Wedding band at 15.5"= .912, 18"=.876, 24"= .822, 28"= .817, 32"= .807, 34"= .800, 36"= .803, 38"= .830, 39.5"= .882

English 1850's Hooked breach style with under rib
Barrel length = 32.5"
breach= 1.275, Wedding band at 8.75"=1.033, 12"=.943, 16"=.893, 20" =.866, 24" .862, 28"= .842, 32"=.850, 32.5= .883

[Feltwad]

You will find on the s/b English fowler it mostly depends on the length of the barrel and the bore size.For a 30-36inch barrel in bore size of 11-20 the octangle at the breech end is approx 1.1/4 inches and is approx 9 inches in length and tapers down to 1inch at the baluster turn.also most damascus barrels the round part of the barrel is tapered on the outside down to the muzzle.
On barrels which are longer in the same bore size especially the long barrel flinters then the octangle is 10 to 15 inches and has mostly a double wedge fitted,octangle and barrel length has mostly to do with balance so a gun does not become muzzle heavy.
On the larger bore size such as the 8,6,4,2. the octangle can be up to 19 inches long and all of these barrels have a double wedge.
Feltwad

[Sean]

You know I was kinda wondering about how common swamped o/r barrels were after getting Grinsdale's book.  If you look through the specs he gives on NE fowlers, a lot of them are darned skinny at the muzzle.  We're talking like 3/4" for .60+ cal barrels.  I don't think there's enough meat there to swamp it.  For the NE guns it looks like the average breech diameter is probably around 1 1/8" or a bit more, with the earlier guns being quite a bit beefier.  Based on that and without ever handling one, I'd guess they were pretty close to a straight taper.  However, its important to remember that these were all hand made critters so there was a lot of variation.  Once I measured about 8 original trade rifle barrels by the same maker.  There some generalities in common, but none of them were the same.

Sean

[LynnC]

I appreciate every bit of info I can get - Let see if I can reply to your input.

Capt. Jas - I guess I have overlooked the Griffin profile, a 12 ga. I think - I'll check the catalogs and see what info I can glean from it.

I'm thinking in the 28 gage range for ball and shot.  The gun in Grinslades book I'm looking at is 1" at breech and 11/16 at muzzle and 44 long - Of course no in between dims.

Dave B - Thanks for taking time to measure those bbls.  I'll lay out your dims on paper and see what the profile is.  The first bbl. seem to be a long taper, very short waist and then a flared muzzle.

Feltwad - Yes, a double wedge or taper on the longer bbls. And that is at what points along the length they begin and end is what I am trying to determine.

Question  -  On longer barrels,  Is there a relatively straight section beyond the double taper section out to the muzzle?  Or  are you describing a double taper, over the entire length?

Sean - I don't have to have swamp in the bbl but I threw that in just in case it turned out to be common on English bbls.   As to uniformity in bbls,  In a hand made product, variations are expected and I realize that there will be alot of differences in the the bbls anyone of us measure.  I'm just trying to come up with some general guidelines to design this bbl by so it will be stylishly correct.

Again, Thank for the help........................Lynn

[LynnC]

Just as an example.  From my one meager collected fowler, a 12" LOP boys size gun of 32 ga. and and 32" bbl.  -  .94 octagon at breech quickly tapering to .80 at 5" then to .71 at 16" and pretty much straight to the muzzle at .69 dia..  The wedding band falls at 8 1/2", about mid way from breech to the end of the second taper before the parallel section begins.

The gun I'd like to build in the fowler book looks like a fast taper into a slower taper ending forward of the wedding band and the RR entry pipe in the lower fore end.  From there to the muzzle appears straight.

So, before I go off half cocked and order a custom barrel, I thought I'd get some input from you more knowledgeable collectors..........................Lynn

[don getz]

While many of the english barrels do not have a noticeable flair at the muzzle, if you would measure the barrels at various spots, I think you would find that the barrel tapers from the wedding band section out to a point, and then
straightens out.  When you look at a barrel made this way it has a "valley" or smaller waist, and gives you the impression
of a swamped barrel.  Rarely are they ever a straight taper from the wedding band to the muzzle.  Even Tulle musket
barrels are made as I described above, a tapered section going to a straight section at the muzzle..........Don

[LynnC]

Thanks for the additional info Don.

I corrected my above faulty memory to .71 at end of 2nd taper and .69 at muzzle.

Still pretty straight but certainly not a representative sample......................Lynn

[Levy]

I gave Ed Rayl the measurements from a 46" English tradegun (type G, Carolina Gun signed Williams) in 24 gauge (58 cal.) and he duplicated it for me.  It is 1.2" at the breech.  It had a rapidly tapering octagonal section and will be very light in the muzzle when stocked up.  I wanted to be able to shoot ball and shot too.  I ordered the barrel at one CLA Show and picked it up at the next one.  I think that is pretty good delivery time for a non-standard type of barrel.  The Carolina Gun was recovered, by a diver, from the Suwannee River here in Florida.

James Levy

[LynnC]

46",Nice & light - sounds good.  Do you recall any dimensensions along the length that may help me work out a profile?
Thanks....................Lynn