New hunting pouch

[G. Elsenbeck]

Something new tried so bear with me.  I set out to design a new pattern for a hunting pouch and wanted to incorporate a couple of new things.  One a new flap attachment style and two, incorporate the basic pouch construction without a welt.  As for the welt I've used a similar construction for a bag I use during my metal detector forays and has held up very well.  For this bag to keep the integrity of the stitched pieces I used 9 stitches to the inch.  Over time I'll try using 10 - 12 stitches to see if it greatly improves the longevity of a pouch.  I've also noted that many of 'machine sewn' pouches out there and wondered by they aren't using welts sooooooo I realized that the use of 'tightly spaced' stitching must be the answer?  Time will tell as I see alot of pouches out there without welting.  Perhaps another attempt to replicate 'real early' style of pouches?

Seeing this is what I call a prototype and once I got it done I ended up not liking the overall 'look' and will continue to 'tweak'.   For the time being this pouch has an overall dimension of 7 1/4 wide by 8 while the flap is 8 1/2 wide by 9 1/2 high to give you the impression it's larger than it is.  For added convenience I added a large inside pocket, roughly 6 1/8 by 4 in high and added black deer hide for the flap tops' trim.
For your thumbs up or down feel free to add your ideas/comments. 
Gary

[smylee grouch]

Like the size,shape, and shape of the flap. If it were mine I would scale the flap size down to half its size or thereabouts.  Best wishes and Happy Holidays.   Smylee

[Dogshirt]

I like the look. Myself, I like a slightly bigger bag. One thing I've found in sewing leather is too many
stiches per inch tends to tear the leather, like the perferations on a stamp.

[Tim Crosby]

 Looks Good to me, nice size. If anything, I might double the flap, for weight and to keep it from curling, maybe with a reverse Whip stitch.


  Tim C.

[Dennis Glazener]

Good looking pouch. I like those styles with a stitched on flap and no button to fool with especially with cold hands/fingers. I agree with Tim on the double thickness on the flap or maybe a welt around it to keep it from curling.
Dennis

[Randy Hedden]

So,I am wondering "Why no welt"?  Putting in a welt doesn't take any more sewing and the extra amount of leather is negligible.   Sewing a welt into a pouch just seems to me to show a little more refinement to a pouch.  Also, just my personal opinion, but a front flap without any trim around it just looks unfinished.  Now,if you are making backwoods or Appalachian mountain bags then leave the welt out and the flap trim off, but this bag doesn't look like that is what you intended.

Randy Hedden

[Jerry V Lape]

I am confused.  By welt are you referring to a bellows like piece or gore between the front and back half of the bag to give it expanded storage space or so your hand can get to the bottom easier? If so, there is no problem with building a pouch that way if it meets your storage needs. 

I don't care for the overly wide flap, but the shape of the front flap is otherwise acceptable.  Have to agree it looks unfinished without a welted edge though.   

 

[Dogshirt]

I personally would not bind a flap that is single thickness. It adds nothing and is a major PITA.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

OK for what its worth as a buyer not much of a maker.....I like the rest of the bag but the cover is way out of scale for my taste... I think welted seams are stronger.....Gussetts are nice, but not essential....A different cover and the right price and i would buy one of these...

[Bill]

real nice looking pouch.

[Trkdriver99]

I like  it. I agree that the flap needs to be double or something to keep it from rolling. I amm trying figure out a bag for my new Andy Thomas rifle. This just gives me 1 more to roll around in my mind, but there is plenty of room so I hope I don't lose it.

Ronnie

[Ahtuwisae]

Nice work Gary...looking forward to the "tweaked" results.

[G. Elsenbeck]

Wow, some great comments and ideas from everyone.  I appreciate all the feedback and I’ll try to respond to all/most of the points raised in one svelte sweep on the keyboard. 
First, this was an experiment on many fronts (at least for me) and for those that don’t know me well, I tend to NOT march to the beat of a single drummer all the time and I enjoy questioning who/what and why some things are done or challenge how some things are explained.  I enjoy learning more about the leather craft and getting into the ‘design’ of a pouch (making a patent) to better understand what technique(s) will be applied or can be learned, in order to pull off your design. 
Obviously, like this one, they don’t always come out great the first time.  So thank you all.  But at the same time I thought this would be a great tool to present for discussion.   See, there is a reason for my madness.  (“There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."  Not sure who claims this, but it’s true!) 
 
Yes, I agree the flap could be trimmed a bit (see below) as I sized this one to sew the pouch up with external, or flat sewn, stitching, but changed my mind during the process.  As a result it looks a bit too large.  (see new pics)
 
As to lining the flap to give it more weight, I say no in this particular size/style of flap.   I’ve learned to work a piece of veg tan and have a flap ‘drape’ the pouch without having to add lining or trimming (see pic 1).   Again, I did consider adding some trim to the edges, but after visualizing what it would look like with this particular flap design it wouldn’t look right.    How many original pouches, aside from those with inlays, had flaps lined or edges trimmed?  Of those that did, what did the flaps look like?   Small, or large flaps?  How were they attached to the pouch?   And what causes the curling?  I’ve got some great looking pictures of your basic hunting pouches without lining or edge treatments and they certainly don’t look unfinished nor homespun.   More food for thought I guess and like art, pouch designs are very subjective.
 
Now To Welt or Not To Welt is the big queston.    First I’m a big believer, like most of you here, that the use of welting makes their use giving your pouch a much more refined and finished look to your work.  Nor am I advocating not to use them as I use welting, mostly the folded over style, 99% of the time.    But why else to use them?   
I’ve heard others say ‘they protect the threads’.  Huh, what threads?  Whether welts are used or not don’t you have threads exposed?   I’m not trying to be confrontational at all, but rather looking for all the advantages.

Surely you can have a ‘pretty strong’ seam without a welt by using, say a stitch with 8 or 9 per inch.  Would/does it appear to have the same amount of strength as if a welt was used?  Probably not, but I would imagine it could be/is pretty close.  At least in my example I could not ‘rip apart’ the seam. 

I wonder why commercial, machine sewn pouches have lasted so long.  Aside from the economic reason, why are they not using welts?

Yet others say ‘too many stitches per inch tend to tear the leather’.  Almost like a stamp perforation.  With proper sewing technique and good leather I don’t see that happening.  See pic 2 & 3; would this be a good example?  This is an antique shot snake I just got and was just like this condition.  I really enjoyed going over this with magnification and made a couple of observations.  One, I cannot find one ‘saddle stitch’ except where the leather is sewn tight around the charger.  Otherwise it was machine sewn.  Two, the leather (still pliable and soft), about 2 oz in weight, did not tear at any point but, the thread failed big time.  And this was sewn 9 stitches per inch.  The thread used appears to be the old time linen/hemp kind.   So what is the cause??   My guess the industry got so wrapped up with the new fangled sewing machines that they forgot about fit, form, and function? Aren’t/shouldn’t shot snakes be made to carry a substantial amount of weight?  I dare say if this used a better sewing technique (maybe the saddle stitch) and maybe a slightly larger thread this antique would still be useable?  Could it be that bad sewing techniques coupled with wrong threads for the intended purpose lead to way more failure of pouches regardless whether welts are used?   Just more food for thought and more answers to seek I guess.

Thanks again for all your input and appreciated the discussion.  All have a great holiday!
Gary 

Pic 1

It does look better, huh.

Pic 2 & 3, vintage/antique shot snake.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Looks much better Gary.... proportions work for me!!

Helpful pictures.. I am making a shot snake as we speak!!

[G. Elsenbeck]

Thanks Dr. Tim, and if you need some measurements from this one drop me a line.  I got this to study and then re-use the charger to make one myself, 

Gary

[mudcat dale]

Just a thought about stitching causing the leather to tear like perforated leather.....
This is not typically going to be a problem even with very small stitches if the sewing is done correctly.  By that I mean holes made with a sharp awl with a diamond cross section making sure that the holes are oriented at about 45 degrees to the edge.  Another excellent way is to use a pricking iron (this method keeps the stitching very neat).  It is generally the machine stiched seams (holes punched with a round needle) that tend to tear like perforated paper.

Dale

[skillman]

This topic has caused me to do research as well. Great job Gary.
I have never used welts on my bags, only my sheaths that need the protection from sharp blades. Even this doesn't always stop cutting through if someone's not carefull. My early bags were made of about 4oz leather and were stitched very tightly with artificial sinew. They were stitched inside out and when reversing them I used hot water to soften them and help get rid of much of the comercial dye. The darn things were water tight. These are still in good order after much abuse and show no signs of tearing. As I got more "informed" and historically critical, I have noticed  that most of the leather workers use welts. However I truely believe there is reason to question just how many bags were lined and "fancy". I think that like fancy guns, these are what were treasured and so survived. I tried to go through Grant's book but couldn't tell from the pictures with any certainty which bags did or didn't have welting. I guess this will be one of the things I start paying attention to.  Nice job Gary!! More things to study!!! Like I didn't have enough already.

Steve

[leatherman]

Hello guys , May I add some of my experience to this topic. I was a leather buyer for a major shoe company back in the day and we sewed from 1 1/2 ounce to 5 ounce leather with chistle pointed needles , 8 to 12 stitches per inch with very fine threads in most cases in womens shoes. The only time we had problems with the strength of the stiching failing was the falt of the tanning process or what we called tender leather. We tested each shipment of leather for tensil strength by cutting a slot in the backbone of the hide and pulling it with the index finger, if it tore easily it went onto more precise testing in our lab. We rejected alot of leather that way and held our tanning vendors to strick standards on this and other requirements. With out these tests you could have thousands of pairs of shoe upper made before this problem was discovered when lasting the uppers. I beleive a shoe has much more stress put on its seams than any possibles bag will ever have to endure. I also believe a saddle stich is no better or will resist tearing any better than any other stitch when it comes to a given leather. If the leather is on the tender side the seam will fail regardless. There are other factors you must be careful of. When hand sewing it is critical not to get your holes too large be they round punched or chisle shaped. Same thing holds true when machine sewing. You must always match the size needle to the size thread being careful not to use too large a needle. And as you stitch a narrower stitch you must go down on the size of your thread. For those who tan there own hides, try testing the strength as I mentioned above. Cut a slit 1 1/2" long and put your finger in it and pull sideways. If it tears easily then your best to use a longer stich and keep your holes as small as your needle and thread will allow. I also have talked to a few manufacturers on the use of welts in seams of leathergoods. It is considered a styleing feature and considered by the public as a better quality product but does not add any extra stength to the seam but instead gives the seam extra body to hold the shape of the curve of the products such as rounded corners. Thus a better product! I use comercially tanned leathers mostly chrome tanned in my products and I hold my tanners to the same standards as I did in the shoe industry. I do not use light weight veg tanned leathers as alot of possibles bag maker use for the historical aspect so I dont know how it compares in tensil strength to the chrome tanned on an apple to apples test. I can say if you are buying your leather from anyone but directly from a tanner, then you may be buying rejects that has been jobbed off and you get what you get. Regardless of what you might have paid. Tanners test for tender leather on each lot too and once it is made there is nothing they can do to fix it so rather than ship it to the intended buyer it is jobbed off where it usually winds up in
china if made here in the states or in numerous jobbers across the states for domestic small leather shops like mine and yours. Be careful and do the pull test before you buy that leather at the trade fair vendor.

[T.C.Albert]

All I can add, and its not really much, is that welts were indeed a feature on many original bags, especially those apparently made by professional leather workers. A pouches gussets were typically welted on both sides, which is rather tedious to do. And often the welts were even skiived at the pouches throat etc, and great attention paid to their every detail. For what ever reason, it does seem the old timers believed in them and were traditionally taught how to utilize them in their work. I sure wish I could some how ask one of them why as well.
tca

[leatherman]

Again the reason for welting is to give the bags  seams the added firmness to hold their shape and smooth out the seam as well. No other reason. The trades back then were taught the proper way to do things by a master and that was that. Just as in any other craft as rifles, barrels, shoes, or you name it, their crafts were developed over a long time and certain emphasis was put on certain asspects of the finished products. Some for durability, some for function, and some for looks. Speculate all you want why a maker put a welt in the seams but it comes down to he was either taught that this was the proper way to make it, be it extra work or not and it helped make the seams flow smoothly and keep their shape. It wasnt until the invention of skiving machines in the late 1800's that manufacturers started elliminating the welt and could still get a smooth looking seam in machine sewn mass produced products. But welted seams still are being done now by sewing machine on better quality leather goods for the same reasons they were 200+ years ago. It just makes a better looking seam.

[James Rogers]

Spot on leatherman. Unlike specialized pursemakers, flaskmakers, etc. found in Paris and London, most pro made American pouches would have been made by those trained as a saddler or harness maker and they would have employed work habits as in those trades such as welts, etc.
I am of the opinion that many of those that were not crude home jobs were imports during the colonial period based on ship manifests.

[leatherman]

Madison Grant makes a mention to that in his book and shows a water color painting from around 1800 of some hunters useing european imported bags . I have a european made bag that was used in Canada in the early 1800's . It is welted too. I have looked at a few original bags over the years at shows and museums hear and in Europe and the european bags are almost always welted. The american home jobs are made both with and without a welt but you find even the cruder made bags with a welted seam now and then. Maybe the home maker had it their mind that a welt would protect the threads or strengthen the seam as many think that today. I would suspect some of these were made by a skilled leather tradesman for local customers who wanted a bag but didnt have much to spend on one. So he made them a basic bag with out all the bound edges and such. Sort of what we bag makers are doing now. Giving the customer choices at differnt price points . I  find it odd that in all the years I have been making bags, I have never had a request for a welt in the seam. And I have never made one with it either.