tight patch

[ottawa]

I have read all input on here about the drawbacks of too loose a patch on accuracy be it a too mall of a ball too thin of a patch. etc. now can to tight of a patch ball combo mess up accuracy ? or is too tight  a combo one you cant get down the barrel without a hammer?

[hanshi]

For hunting, if it can't be seated (safely) with a wooden rod it's too tight.  It should still be as tight as you can load for bet performance.

[Frizzen]

I have proved it time and time again at our local range of shooting .410 balls in my GM 40 cal.
with .020 patching and pushing it down the barrel with your little finger on my 1/4 inch dia.
ramrod!! True, you have to tap it in with a small brass hammer for the first 1/4 inch or so.
After it's started it just slides down. Been shooting it this way for twenty years now.

[Daryl]

Here's my .45, with a .445" ball and .0225" patch (10oz denim), after firing over 50 shots that day on the trail - no wiping during that shooting. The barrel is a GM, with .010" deep rifing.
 
You can see how easy it is to load, for both of us, yet the combination Hatchet Jack is using is a bit looser in the smoothbore  and does pickup some fouling due it's choked muzzle. Neither of us has to wipe while shooting. Hatchet Jack normally goes through 80 to 85 balls a day, when shooting. He starts earlier than we do, and never slows down.

We shot this video on the way back to the clubhouse,a fter the day's shooting was over.

 Ross is shooting his 20 bore, choked smoothbore, with a .600" WW ball and a .020" ticking patch.

[Dphariss]

I have read all input on here about the drawbacks of too loose a patch on accuracy be it a too mall of a ball too thin of a patch. etc. now can to tight of a patch ball combo mess up accuracy ? or is too tight  a combo one you cant get down the barrel without a hammer?

If the lube is an actual lube then once the ball is seated into the bore it loads about like any other load since once started its sized to the bore the compression on the patch provides the friction. A fit that imprints the cloth's imprint on the ball at the grooves may have more friction and be harder to load once started.  But again lube can be critical if it does not adequately soften the fouling then this can be a factor as well. Powder that cakes hard in the bore can be a factor too.
Seems to me that the bench gun shooters shoot very tight fits as do some others. I seem to recall one of the guys I shoot with using a .451 in his 45. If this is the case it certainly does not hurt accuracy.
The land groove ratio of the barrel can also effect how hard a ball/patch combination loads.

Dan

[Daryl]

As well as the purity of the lead being used. How easily it goes into the muzzle, drawing/sizing the bal andpatch to fit the grooves, can largly depend on the shape and smoothness of the crown itself.

[ottawa]

well I asked this as I have a .54 that has shot well for years till this year . only factor that has changed is the patch mattereal is rather old 7+ years yup I shoot alot lol the balls are pure lead from Remington .

[bob in the woods]

Ahhh , the story behind the question    If you have a rifle that has shot well, then changes /drops off in accuracy....1] may be the patch material. Perhaps it has weakened over time
2]  it may be that you need to add 5 or 10 gr more powder to bring the accuracy back.  Certainly worth trying .After a couple thousand  rounds, my .54 needed an extra 10 gr FFg to bring it back to where it was accuracy wise.

[JCKelly]

I believe all this thick patch tight fit stuff, really I do, but my %$@##!! modern shallow groove alloy steel barrel maybe needs someone smarter than I to load it. Tried nice .440 balls in this .45 cal, great at 25 yards but then so is a slingshot. Not so great at 50 yards. Went to 0.018" store-bought patches w Mink Oil. On the third shot I had to go home to get a brass rod to pound that nice ball down the barrel, it being stuck about half-way down. Cleaned it, same problem next couple of shots. Took it home, cleaned it, leaned up in the closet. Bought a low-wall .22rf. It goes bang.

In my mis-spent youth I used  bore size .420" balls in my re-cut antique Deringer, spit patches, never knew about problems loading. Must I admit? - I sold it.

I suppose this damnable modern barrel needs the muzzle crowned by emery paper ( = unobtainium) & a strong thumb. One of these days . . .

[Frizzen]

In my 45 which measures .450 across the lands. "A old H&H" barrel, I have shot .457 dia balls
with .020 thick patching and it will slide down the barrel with just your little finger on the
1/4 inch dia steel ramrod. I really don't understand how some can't do it.   I do use
the Teflon coated patching and wipe between shots.

[LH]

Frizzen,  its got a whole lot to do with how smooth the bore in a given barrel is.  Lapping a rough bore will make it load easier and foul much less.  Shooting the same gun for 40,000 rounds and not letting it rust will do it too.   

[Daryl]

 
If there is no adverse distortion of the ball, generally the tighter the combination, the greater the load's accuracy potential.

As both Dan and Frizzen noted, once the combination is in the bore, it is groove and bore diameter and the lubricant then allows easy loading from there down.  If the bore had dried, collected fouling, loading will not be possible. We would say the lube failed.  Frizzen does not use a lube that softens fouling, but chooses to load with a modern lubricant0 teflon coated patches. Those require cleaning the bore between shots. Some of us choose to use a liquid or grease lube that softens the fouling and prevents fouling from building up. 

 

[Kaintuckkee]

I shoot a 451 RB with a 022 denim patch in my GM barrel,I start it with a small mallet and it goes down easy,I usually dont wipe between shots and can shoot long as I care to

[Stormrider51]

Here's the rule of thumb I apply.  1.  Use only pure lead balls.  They will take an impression from the rifling on loading and conform which makes getting it down the bore easier.  2.  Try different patch thicknesses and examine the fired patch.  It will be on the ground some distance in front of the shooting position.  If the patch shows burned holes it was too thin.  If it shows ragged tears it was too thick.  A correct patch will show a black circle on an intact patch.  3.  The best combination is one that loads without grunting or pile-driving the ball down the bore but doesn't show burned holes in the patch.  Just my 2 cents.

Storm

[Daryl]

Storm- that's really close to my exerience, however I've never found a patch too tight as my muzzle's are smoothly finished. There is no cutting, not even with a ball that is larger than the bore and a .025" patch, as long as the ball is pure lead.
 
I tried some .322" buckshot in the .32 rifle with wide lands, narrow grooves, just the opposite of perfect. I used my normal 10oz. denim I've measured from .019" to .0225' depending ont he calipers I use. They all give different thicknesses.   If you can find denim that is listed as 10oz. THAT'/s the stuff.  Much denim isn't listed as to 'weight per ounce' , but is still listed as 100% cotton. Some denims are mixes.  The thick patch and oversized hardened balls started hard, but then loaded and shot fine and didn't cut the patches due to the smooth crown. They are a bit too hard for starting, for me and I like them tight. 

I've a .319" DC mould ordered from Lee - hope them come iout a bit oversize like my last 2 or 3 Lee moulds. Snug is good!