Author Topic: rifles versus smoothbores  (Read 35480 times)

Offline sonny

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Re: rifles versus smoothbores
« Reply #75 on: January 03, 2012, 08:08:10 PM »
geeez, i thought that the smoothbore barrel was supposed to be excellent with shot an wad. I was led to believe that at 35 yrds a 28 gauge fowler witha 42" getz barrel could put all shot into a 30" circle. Now i am reading that rabbits an flying game must be sitting to have a chance to collect at any range!. If any of this stuff is supposed to be the gospal truth,we must clear out the nit-wits with their super groups at long distance with shot or ball or we will all be mixed into the half truth's an lie's.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: rifles versus smoothbores
« Reply #76 on: January 03, 2012, 08:33:39 PM »
"All is not gold that glisters", Sonny.  In other words, one must not take the written word - here or there - too seriously.  It is best to find out from your own experience exactly what your smooth bored gun will do.  Then you will be able to write, " In my experience"...or "in my opinion".

By the same definition, a Jaeger or Yaeger, is not a rifle but a hunter, and his rifle is "die busche".
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

blunderbuss

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Re: rifles versus smoothbores
« Reply #77 on: January 03, 2012, 09:07:55 PM »


From what I understand the rifle we call Jaeger is a Stutzen in German .Earlier weapons changed names allot too. a haggen busche was a hook gun that one hooked over a wall or tripod device. That then became hackbutt with no hook. We also have double action only weapons which one cannot cock. No one called  it a hammer on a weapon until percussion came along unless you want to call a frizzen a hammer ,which was what it was called, from time to time. Blunderbuss came from Donner Buchse Thunder gun that name is still changing as I have heard folks refer to it as a blunderbuster. By the way Buchse litterly means box Gewher is a gun in German . A possiables bag is not a hunting pouch or rifle bag it contained odds and ins or possiables not contained in the rifle bag or haversack (for food related items) If one wants an exact meaning on somthing sometime it gets rough,but fun to figure out.

Vomitus

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Re: rifles versus smoothbores
« Reply #78 on: January 03, 2012, 11:58:33 PM »
  If I were to venture west in the day,I'd want a fowling piece and a good rifle.Not to mention a hatchet,scalper,beltknife,pistols,sabre,wagon,one saddle,2 draft horses...

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: rifles versus smoothbores
« Reply #79 on: January 04, 2012, 07:31:14 AM »
I have seen in both Visier and DeutschesWaffenJournal the term Scheibenbuchse used for target rifle and Gewehr refering to a miltary rifle.One word is Schactl for box,
Achtkant Lauf= eight angled or octagon barrel
Halbschaft =half stock
Vollschaft=full stock
Abzugsbugel=a trigger guard
Hakenschaftkappe=a crescent butt plate
Messing =brass
Eisen und Stahl=iron and steel
Schraube=screw
Schraubewinde=screw threads
Schraubenzier=screw driver
Vorderlader=muzzleloader
Steinschloss=flintlock
Hauptfeder=mainspring
Studel=bridle
Nuss mit Kette und fliege=tumbler with link and fly
Abzugstange=sear
Abzugstangefeder=sear spring
Batteriefeder=frizzen spring
Lang Kugel=long bullet
Rundkugel-round ball
Putzstock mit Lappenhalter=loading rod with cleaning jag.
Pflaster=patch
Kugelform=bullet mould
Blei=lead
Schwarzpulver=black powder
Messing oder Eisen beschlagen=brass or iron furniture
Zubehore=accesories
There are more but I am tired and have a appointment with a new urologist in the morning. I hope these help because every so often we see a transliterated word that can be a problem. All of these pertain to muzzle loaders "beides steinschloss und Perkussion"
both flintlock and percussion.
Alle Freunde pulver und blei,guten nacht bis morgen.

Bob Roller
 

Offline Longknife

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Re: rifles versus smoothbores
« Reply #80 on: January 04, 2012, 08:33:38 AM »
geeez, i thought that the smoothbore barrel was supposed to be excellent with shot an wad. I was led to believe that at 35 yrds a 28 gauge fowler witha 42" getz barrel could put all shot into a 30" circle. Now i am reading that rabbits an flying game must be sitting to have a chance to collect at any range!. If any of this stuff is supposed to be the gospal truth,we must clear out the nit-wits with their super groups at long distance with shot or ball or we will all be mixed into the half truth's an lie's.

 Sonny, Shoot it!!! You will love it!!! Contrary to what some  people want you to believe the smoothbore played a huge role in the settlement of this country.  Do your own research and form you own opinion, yours is the only one that really counts.  I doubt that this thread is going to change anyones mind about smoothbores. Ya either like 'em or ya don't. I have shot lots of game, big and small, with one but the game didn't know I was shooting a smoothie and died any way!!!!....Ed  
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 07:40:17 PM by Longknife »
Ed Hamberg

Daryl

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Re: rifles versus smoothbores
« Reply #81 on: January 04, 2012, 07:14:46 PM »
geeez, i thought that the smoothbore barrel was supposed to be excellent with shot an wad. I was led to believe that at 35 yrds a 28 gauge fowler witha 42" getz barrel could put all shot into a 30" circle. Now i am reading that rabbits an flying game must be sitting to have a chance to collect at any range!. 

As always, the truth is in between. Extremes rarely pan out.  I personally shot a 2 1/2" group at 50 yards standing but resting my forend hand against a pillar with that Brown Bess of your's Sonny, but only that one and only group. What's that mean? - nothing definite, but it showed potential.  As to shot, that will be a lesson all it's own - much trial and testing, or perhaps beginners luck right off the bat. Cylinder bores can take a lot of work in load development. Trouble is, they aren't that consistant, pattern to pattern shot to shot. You might have to work at that - part of the fun and learning your gun.

It is true, accurate wing shooting was increasingly developed after the percussion cap was invented.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: rifles versus smoothbores
« Reply #82 on: January 06, 2012, 03:01:54 AM »
geeez, i thought that the smoothbore barrel was supposed to be excellent with shot an wad. I was led to believe that at 35 yrds a 28 gauge fowler witha 42" getz barrel could put all shot into a 30" circle. Now i am reading that rabbits an flying game must be sitting to have a chance to collect at any range!. If any of this stuff is supposed to be the gospal truth,we must clear out the nit-wits with their super groups at long distance with shot or ball or we will all be mixed into the half truth's an lie's.

Do your own testing.
A friend was using a 56 cal smoothbore, shooting ball and also hunting with small shot. It was surprisingly accurate with ball but nearly useless with shot.
The primary problem is people to not test adequately.
It takes more than one group or pattern to prove a claim.
So shoot 10 groups of 5 or 10 shots then come to a conclusion.
I had a smooth rifle that would sometimes shoot 3 out of 5 shots into a very nice group at 50-60 yards.
But one cannot make decisions on 3 good shots out of 5. One must consider that in actual use the the worst group will be the one that rears its head when shooting game. So while the smooth rifle would shoot parts of groups that were very impressive one would not want to bet large sums of money on its doing this.
Now I WOULD bet it would shoot 4.5" at 50-60 yards since it seemed to be able to do this reliably.
So when one of the posters or readers here wants to make a claim that their rifle or smooth bore will shoot a group this size or that they need to ask themselves if they would bet $100 on it.
Large bets on rifle matches and shotgun shooting as well, were common in our history. $500 to $1000 in gold was not unknown in the 19th century. Especially in matches between gunsmiths.
Today few people have that level of confidence.
Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Stormrider51

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Re: rifles versus smoothbores
« Reply #83 on: January 06, 2012, 06:35:50 AM »
Is a smoothie as accurate as a rifle at any range?  It depends on the rifle and how it is loaded but generally speaking the answer is No.  Otherwise rifling would never have caught on considering that rifling a bore is a labor intensive job.  I remember reading an account of a siege on Boonesboro where the defenders were greatly hampered by the fact that the majority were armed with smoothbores and therefore lacked the range to pick off the Indian attackers.  This statement points up a couple of things.  One, the majority of defenders were armed with smoothbores.  Two, they would have been far better served if they had owned and been proficient with rifles.  Of course, we don't know if they had solid balls available for those smoothies or how they loaded them.  I can say that I've owned a smoothie that I shot with a tightly patched round ball and got surprisingly good accuracy out to 100 yards.  As good as my best groups with a rifle?  Nope.  But you wouldn't have wanted me shooting at you from that distance either.  I couldn't say that for the times I tried pouring down a charge of powder followed by a wad of tow, a loose ball and more tow to hold things in place.  Those shots were pretty much in the "to whom it may concern" category compared to a rifle at 100 yards.

Storm

northmn

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Re: rifles versus smoothbores
« Reply #84 on: January 06, 2012, 07:38:06 PM »
I might as well post my observations and studies.  First the account of Morgan's Riflemen at Saratoga is often used by arm chair quarter backs to support their theories on why the rifle should have been used more.  If you read the "rest of the story"  the British unit that they ambushed lured them into a group of regulars (some say Grenediers) that tore them to doll rags when they pursued the retreating British. It would not be too much of a leap of logic to think that that might have inspired Morgan's tactics against Tarlton at Cowpens.  That rifle unit was not mentioned after that encounter.  GG Grand dad was not stupid and the tactics used were the best for the technology of the times.  The American rifle units did not have a standardized weapon, they were sporting arms and not military arms and were too fussy.  Look at the care we use to keep a flintlock rifle shooting in a match today.  When I had a repo Bess, the thing was about as fussy as a percussion.  I used it to shoot a few rounds of trap at shoots before I built a 12 bore that fit me.  The British employed the most successful rifle units for the times in the Napoleanic wars and they utilized disciplined hand picked soldiers (ones that could shoot) and issued the Baker rifle, a standard caliber short barreled rifle that looked little like our long rifle.  The first American military rifle, the Harpers Ferry or its evolution's) is more like the Baker than a long rifle.  I will point out that when the British held off the 4000 Zulu at Rourkes drift they had rifles.  One source claime dthe empty cartridge count was close to 20,000 rounds  they did not eradicate all 4000  Zulu's.  Some of this might have been had they had rifles may not be as true in fact as some speculate.
Shotguns have been used in Iraq by the Marines in urban warfare, the American introduced model 97 pumps in WW1 to clear trenches, mountain men used them for night watch and modern and frontier lawmwne carried them to keep the piece.  It is said Wyatt Earp supplemented his income with a double barrel he used to collect a few buffalo hides with.  The NWTG was the primary trade item in the Great Lakes as it was affordable to the natives, rifles were more spendy.  The NWTG lasted as a trade item until the breech loader got popular.  Trade rifles were not really a practical item until the 1820's when the idustrial revolution permitted faster and less expensive production.  they were available to Natives and whites alike.
Most hunters in my area admit that if they only had one gun it would be 12 ga repeater.  With a shotgun, whether muzzle laoder or modern one can hunt ducks, grouse and other small game, and nail a few varmits as well as use a solid ball for deer.  People get deer every year with them.  I had an uncle that hunted squirrrels, ducks and quail as well as deer with an old single shot 16 ga.  Put him back in history and a fowler would have worked as well.
Both rifles and smoothbores have their use, and a rifle is not worth a darn for my uses with a smoothbore.  If the shots are longer I really do not care for a smoothbore either.

DP

Offline Longknife

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Re: rifles versus smoothbores
« Reply #85 on: January 08, 2012, 07:20:55 PM »
Is a smoothie as accurate as a rifle at any range?  It depends on the rifle and how it is loaded but generally speaking the answer is No.  Otherwise rifling would never have caught on considering that rifling a bore is a labor intensive job.  I remember reading an account of a siege on Boonesboro where the defenders were greatly hampered by the fact that the majority were armed with smoothbores and therefore lacked the range to pick off the Indian attackers.  This statement points up a couple of things.  One, the majority of defenders were armed with smoothbores.  Two, they would have been far better served if they had owned and been proficient with rifles.  Of course, we don't know if they had solid balls available for those smoothies or how they loaded them.  I can say that I've owned a smoothie that I shot with a tightly patched round ball and got surprisingly good accuracy out to 100 yards.  As good as my best groups with a rifle?  Nope.  But you wouldn't have wanted me shooting at you from that distance either.  I couldn't say that for the times I tried pouring down a charge of powder followed by a wad of tow, a loose ball and more tow to hold things in place.  Those shots were pretty much in the "to whom it may concern" category compared to a rifle at 100 yards.

Storm

We all know that a rifle is more accurate than a smoothbore and it definately is , no need to argue that, but the original purpose of this thread was to discuss the use of smoothbore's on the frontier. After considering all the facts presented here I am now sure that there were a greater number of smoothbore's in colonial America, taken down the Cumberland trail, and used to defend outposts (like Boonsborough), than I had originaly thought. Here is a another "fact", Capt. Clark carried an "eligant fusee" along on that famous expedition. He records losing it in a flash flood  along with a "shot pouch and horn with powder and ball" This indicates that it very well could have been loaded with ball and he LIVED TO WRITE ABOUT IT!!! Here is a quote from the journals on 6/29/1805



  I lost at the river in the torrent the large Compas, an eligant fusee, Tomahawk Humbrallo, Shot pouh, & horn wih powder & Ball, mockersons, & the woman lost her Childs Bear & Clothes bedding &c.—    [X: Sah car gah we â] The Compass is a Serious loss; as we have no other large one. The plains are So wet that we Can do nothing this evining particilarly as two deep reveins are between ourselves & Load





  
« Last Edit: January 08, 2012, 10:33:46 PM by Longknife »
Ed Hamberg