"Fern" carving on early English guns

[Salkehatchie]

Am wondering if anyone has any clues as to what exactly a "fern" carving is on early English guns [ 1700 - 1745].  From what I have read they appeared on the underneath side at the toe of the butt stock.

It is not the "shell" looking carvings on the underneath at toe and trigger quard is it?

Would appreciate any help.  Sorry for not being more specific, that is all the info I have.


Thanks.

[Mike Brooks]

I have never seen any carving at all on english guns on the toe of the buttstock. 99% of the time they have a shell carving at the breech and lock panels terminating in beaver tails.

[Dave B]

I have seen what looks like maybe described as a fern pattern engraved on the trigger guards tang section, but that is not an early trait to my thinking. They were using that into the 19th century

[Lucky R A]

Check out Flintlock Fowlers by Tom Grinslade.   In the section on "British Style Fowlers" p.174 is one shown that certainly has carving to the rear of the entry thimble as well as to the rear of the trigger guard  that could easily be described as a "fern"    There are a number of other examples shown in the book.   These are early American guns in the "British Style"  This would indicate to me that they were copying something from an earlier frame of reference in mother England. 

[Dave B]

Lucky RA
Thanks for that heads up. I have the book but didnt think to look just yet. They look like a transitional from the hudson fowler to a more british butt stock achitecture yet still retaining the carving details around the trigger guard, tang and entry pipe. The carving would be result of the Dutch influence in that area around New York more so than English. All of the examples we seen the Grinsdale's book are made here in the states are they not? I am not very well versed in the early fowlers so if some one can point to some english fowlers with this leaf style carving I would love to find some additional examples to have for my files.

[James Rogers]

In looking thru my British Gunmakers 1540-1740 "hernia" book I don't find any example of what is described in this thread. There are a few English guns of that era by makers who immigrated from the continent  that have an acanthus carved behind the tang in lieu of the shell.

Salkehatchie, what is the source of this "fern" reference? 

[Stophel]

The large acanthus leaf behind the triggerguard seems to be a regional New York thing (and beyond that, it appears to be localized to New York City).  It is attractive, but not English.

[Salkehatchie]

OK.  My "reference" is loaned out right now.  It is the Museum Restoration book on Scottish Firearms, I can not recall the page number. 

It mentions these guns showing up, if I recall correctly; right around the turn of the century.  1700 ish.  And notes their similarity to English guns of the time.  Something like that.

Sorry, wish I could cite chapter and verse, but at present am unable to.

[Dave B]

I found what your talkin bout. PG 44 in the Historical Arms Series No. 34 Scottish Firearms by Claude Blair & robert Woosnam-Savage
The figure is #63 (R-28) It shows a smooth bore that has a lock made by John Stuart on it. It talks about how the Scottish liked to use the paddle shaped butt stock on their long guns. It was as apart of the floral design in the carving used on them that the butt stock toe end has fern like carving. They discuss this but I have not seen what this looks like.

[Salkehatchie]

That is it!  Thank you Dave.

Well...maybe someone will come up with something., now that a member has been kind enough to find the specific citation!  Would like to incorporate, maybe; that item in future gun building.  Will have to see.

It suggests that this style was fashionable before the traditional Scottish gun style [paddle style] went out of vogue maybe?  Might be why we do not see it?

Again, thanks.

[Dave B]

I think the important point for this detail is that the early pieces refered to are in the Scottish paddle style and the one example they have listed is the only known (dated)to be made in the earlly 18th c. that is of the english style yet retaining some destinctive Scottish details. So it stands to reson that it(fern carving) was not prevlent amoungst those making long guns in the southern portion of the british Isle. I pulled out my early guns of Ireland and Greatbrittian and Have not found any reference to the fern type carving but it may yet be found. It is not possible to pick out the carving on the example shown in the scottish book so it stands to reson that it wouldnt be easy to pick up on any other side shot. Any one else have seen this detail on an English style long gun?

[Salkehatchie]

Dave B., point well taken.  Maybe at some point we can find something on this.  Just another piece dropped into place.