Author Topic: Hand forging barrels  (Read 9521 times)

Offline TMerkley

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Hand forging barrels
« on: February 07, 2012, 06:48:45 PM »
What are the barrel makers of today using for material to forge barrels out of?

Offline TMerkley

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Re: Hand forging barrels
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2012, 05:23:30 AM »
The reason I ask this is to determine if leaf spring steel or a softer steel is more appropriate for forging.  I heard that the higher carbon content of a leaf spring (anealed) may be to high to really be good.  I was thinking that with the higher content that after forging, it would have a better resilience after a heat treatment.  Any opinions? :-\

IKE

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Re: Hand forging barrels
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2012, 05:36:38 AM »
Use ONLY wrought iron and work with some one who knows HOW!

Offline TMerkley

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Re: Hand forging barrels
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2012, 05:45:08 AM »
I was just curious and some day would like to learn how to do the forge-welding.  I am at the beginner stage of black smithing (gunsmithing) and just heating and bending of metal on the anvil to learn.  Although I've used torch and welder for a while, it is like comparing apples to oranges.  Yes, they are both fruit but two totally different types!

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Hand forging barrels
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2012, 08:43:54 AM »
The reason I ask this is to determine if leaf spring steel or a softer steel is more appropriate for forging.  I heard that the higher carbon content of a leaf spring (anealed) may be to high to really be good.  I was thinking that with the higher content that after forging, it would have a better resilience after a heat treatment.  Any opinions? :-\

Iron is much easier to weld, high carbon steel is a bad idea for barrels.
Good iron is fine for ML barrels if its properly welded.
Dan
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 08:44:16 AM by Dphariss »
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dannybb55

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Re: Hand forging barrels
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2012, 02:33:00 PM »
leaf spring burns way too easy, almost as easy as welding files together. Two books will help you along: Alex Bealers The Art of Blacksmithing and M T Richarsons Practical Blacksmithing.

ERH

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Re: Hand forging barrels
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2012, 03:25:49 PM »
there is a video on how to forge rifle barrels . I it might help

ottawa

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Re: Hand forging barrels
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2012, 03:34:04 PM »
leaf spring is not  a good choice it dose not forge weld easy and if it dose the seem would be to bridal for a barrel . keep learning and look for true Iron for the day you are ready .

Offline James Wilson Everett

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Re: Hand forging barrels
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2012, 04:01:03 PM »
Guys,

Ditto to the above comments, except that I find steel, most especially high carbon steel, to be exceedingly difficult to forge weld (I mean I can't do it).  The more refined the piece of wrought iron is, the easier it is to weld.  A piece of wrought iron that has such fine slag streaks that they are difficult to see would be the very best for a first attempt (actually for any kind of work too).

If you wish to make a wrought iron barrel without forge welding get a heavier section bar and drill it out - or have it drilled.  I have taken wrought iron building rods (1.25 dia) and had a 40 inch section drilled end to end by a shop that specializes in such drilling.  Pistol barrels I drill myself after forging the octagon.  I have used buggy wheel rims for this, roughly 1.2 thick by 1.5 wide in section.  Also, friend Jymm Hoffman forges these octagon for me using his trip hammer (much easier & better job too).

Building rods were used in the 18-19th c for support of brick building and are seen as big cast iron stars or s-shapes on the outsides of the brick buildings.  The rod connects these stars passing through the building interior.

Jim Everett

Offline TMerkley

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Re: Hand forging barrels
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2012, 05:22:28 PM »
Thanks guys. 

The knowledge you all have, has been really good and appreciated.  Now comes the hard part,  finding true wrought iron. 

Most of the true wrought iron in Lafayette, is on fences or in the old homes of the historic district.  I think they might notice it missing pretty quickly!

The scrap yard in town, does not allow people in to pick through stuff.  It would be too expensive to import from Europe.  Is anyone reproducing it here in the states?

JBlk

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Re: Hand forging barrels
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2012, 05:42:58 PM »
Both of the books on blacksmithing are good resources.Another good one is Country Blacksmithing by Charles McRaven.A good source of wrought iron are old wagon tires.You will probably have more difficulty  in acquiring the necessary tools for your project than finding the wagon tires.

Offline TMerkley

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Re: Hand forging barrels
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2012, 06:05:03 PM »
Thanks,

I have read through the first two books and the foxfire 5 book.  I will have to to some looking. 

Offline Canute Rex

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Re: Hand forging barrels
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2012, 06:31:06 PM »
I'd be somewhat reluctant to use old wrought iron for a barrel. I'd tend towards either mild steel - the regular bars and rods available at steel yards - or what blacksmiths call pure iron.

Mild steel is iron plus 15/100ths of one percent carbon (or thereabouts). It was a replacement for wrought iron when steel making overtook wrought iron.

"Pure iron" is more like 5/100ths of one percent carbon, or less. It isn't as readily available as mild steel, but it forges more easily and forge welds more easily. Blacksmiths like it for decorative work. Look on the ABANA website for sources.

High carbon steel would be inappropriate - overkill for the strength requirements, hard to forge, and requiring careful heat treatment at the end.

The reason I am reluctant about wrought iron is twofold: it is a nonuniform manufactured product, and old iron, especially structural iron, can have flaws and inclusions in it.

Wrought iron is wrought (hammered) from lumps of iron mixed with slag. The slag mostly gets squeezed out, but some remains as longitudinal fibers. Wrought iron is ductile, but it is only really good in tension end to end (in the direction of the fibers). If you take a long flat bar and wrap it into a barrel (as they once did) it will be relatively weak in terms of resisting pressure from the inside. Think Elmer Fudd with his gun blowing into a splayed out bunch of strips.

If the wrought iron is good and the weld is good, then it can take the pressure of a black powder explosion. However, if there is a flaw in either, boom. Bad boom, not good boom.

The building supports were generally made of what was called "merchant bar," a less refined type of wrought iron. It was going to be used as a 1 1/2" square or larger, always in tension, so who cared about coarse grain or a few flaws? I have forged the stuff, and it was prone to splitting. The quality is extremely variable.

Old wagon tires might be better. Old hoops from wooden farm silos sometimes are wrought, but you'd have to either used them spirally as skelp or build them up. The problem is that planes of rust can work their way into the structure of the iron over 150 years. The spiral technique was common for damascus shotgun barrels, and it made sense. The fibers of the wrought iron ended up going around the barrel like hoops, in tension.

But still, rather than gambling on used wrought iron I'd use modern, uniform material.

I remember reading about a feu de joie fired at either Mt. Independence or Fort Ticonderoga in 1776. About 100 men fired their muskets/fowlers/whatever and three muskets blew up. So it went in the days of wrought iron.

If you do use wrought iron for a barrel, proof test it from a distance several times. And then a few more times.

Offline Randy Hedden

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Re: Hand forging barrels
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2012, 09:14:04 PM »
A while back, last November, "Majorjoel" on this board announced that he had acquired a load of wrought iron and was going to offer it for sale on this board.  You might ask him when he will have the wrought iron available.

He hadn't settled on a price, but any wrought iron you find is going to be expensive unless your are able to scrap it out yourself.

Randy Hedden
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Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Hand forging barrels
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2012, 09:25:36 PM »
I purchased some from Cabin Creek Muzzleloading. 

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Hand forging barrels
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2012, 09:36:30 PM »
Quote
any wrought iron you find is going to be expensive unless your are able to scrap it out yourself.


Randy,
Are you feeling energetic and looking for a bit of pocket change for you and Todd?  I seem to recall a couple of old iron bridges on Rt 51 between Dwight and Mahomet.  They are viewable from the road and are no longer in service.  It's been 13 years, but they might still be there.  Might be worth a Sunday afternoon drive to see.  If you attend the Prairieland show down by Effingham, you could kill 2 birds with one tank of gas.
Dave Kanger

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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Hand forging barrels
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2012, 09:42:48 PM »
Canute,

I have not forged barrels and therefore may not be the best person to address your post, but I will share what I understand.   I understand a few of the first barrels forged at Colonial Williamsburg were made of mild steel.  I have been told, when compared to wrought iron, the forge welding process is much more difficult and prone to problems.  I think virtually all of the subsequent forge welded barrels made in modern times have been made of wrought iron.  

In addition, for someone trying to go to great lengths to replicate a process and product, appropriate materials become important.  Not all iron would be appropriate for use in a barrel; and, yes, even in apparently good quality material, the chance of a significant defect is higher than modern materials.  I know our tolerance for manufacturing defects that can cause bodily harm are lower than in previous centuries, and this is rightfully so, but it can't be ignored that wrought iron forge welded barrels were the material and process of choice for hundreds of years.  In practice, appropriate proofing is used in an attempt to identify any potential problems with the product.

Perhaps others who are more experienced will share their thoughts.

Thanks,
Jim
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 12:13:09 AM by Jim Kibler »

dannybb55

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Re: Hand forging barrels
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2012, 02:56:58 AM »
A-36 mild steel and 10 10 are very easy to weld, They need a clean , reducing fire of good breeze, some Borax, a wire brush, fast sure hammerwerke and a good eye. The hardest thing to do is to weld some file steel to a wrought iron bar with a small demonstration forge in sunny daylight. Low light and a good bottom draught tuyere with a nice pair of bellows is the best way to go.
  Barrel skelps can be made out of inferior iron. What is needed is to faggot weld the bar several times to forge out the problems areas. if a problem area is identified cut the iron half through the spot, fold the bar in half, flux it up and weld it together. Presto! the problem is now at the end of the bar, to be trimmed away, and the bar is the same length. You can add bars to the fundamental bar to add mass and twist it while white hot to rearrange the grain before welding some more. The goal is to average the iron's structure to get the uniform quality up to barrel iron quality. this prep work was what made Spanish barrels so sought after.
 Don't get caught up in the machinist trap that iron has to be reduced by carving it away. make some big , solid work out of small bits like a smith can.
                                                        Danny

Offline James Wilson Everett

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Re: Hand forging barrels
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2012, 07:27:23 AM »
Guys,

Good advise from several knowledgeable persons on thos one.  I have a really beautiful wrought iron pistol barrel, octagon to round, very smooth, my best job ever!  However, there is also a crack just at the point of highest breech pressure, about 1 inch in front of the breech plug, directly across the grain of the iron!  How it got there, I don't know, wrought iron is not supposed to crack across the grain.  I could not see the crack during the barrel making, it only showed up later as a little corrosion brought it to my sight.  I keep this one to remind me that using original wrought iron is a higher risk proposition than buying a Getz.

Have fun with this stuff, but please be very careful and don't get hurt.

Jim

Offline Chuck Burrows

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Re: Hand forging barrels
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2012, 09:01:22 AM »
Some of the best quality wrought iron available today is being sold here - it is very clean good to best quality WI
http://www.wisconsinwoodchuck.net/treasures.htm

They had about 500,000 pounds for sale in all kinds of sizes
Wisconsin Woodchuck LLC
Wrought Iron Price List
RODS
Size lbs/LF $/LF $/lb
5/8" 1.00 $ 6.00 $ 6 .00
3/4" 1.44 $ 7.00 $ 4 .86
7/8" 1.96 $ 8.00 $ 4 .08
1" 2.56 $ 9.00 $ 3 .52
1-1/4" 4.00 $ 10.00 $ 2 .50
1-1/2" 5.76 $ 11.50 $ 2 .00
BARS
1/4 x 2" 1.63 $ 6.50 $ 4 .00
1/4 x 3" 2.38 $ 9.50 $ 4 .00

Wrought came in at least 3 qualities:
Wrought
Double Wrought
Triple Wrought

Wrought is the roughest to work with since it has a higher quantitly of slag in it - this is the stuff used mostly for wagon rims and other heavy wearing coarse type work.
Double and Triple were used for architectural purposes, bridges, art work, gun parts, etc. i.e. items needing a cleaner iron.
Any WI though can be worked and re-worked to clean it up - that's all double and triple wrought are - more refined WI made by re-heating and beating. Work it hot to prevent it "unraveling".
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I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

Offline Canute Rex

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Re: Hand forging barrels
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2012, 06:30:47 PM »
Jim Kibler: I appreciate what you say about the appropriate material for the work, especially given the attention to historical detail I see in many contemporary longrifles. Wrought iron did work for many centuries, but steel quickly superseded it for applications requiring uniform strength. My concern is that someone just learning about forge welding and barrel making might "dive off the high board" and get hurt. With mild steel you only have to worry about your own weld. With wrought iron you have to worry about every weld made in the original material processing.

I like what dannybb55 had to offer. Wrought iron welds like glue on glue, but clean mild steel can be welded with care. Refining the iron and working out flaws would be a good preliminary step. Better yet, spend the money on good materials to begin with - thank you Mr. Burrows.

I should also note that for the past couple of decades blacksmiths have been dealing with intermittent batches of mild steel that simply won't forge weld. Much steel is recycled, and sometimes that results in a batch of mild steel with trace alloys in it that create a tough oxide layer. The steel acts like it it greased and won't stick. When it first started to show up a number of blacksmiths were mystified and thought they had lost their welding mojo.

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Hand forging barrels
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2012, 07:03:24 PM »
If someone is serious about this work, I would suggest talking to those who have done it and done it well.  Here is a list that comes to mind.  All of these individuals are well respected profesionals.

Wallace Gusler
Gary Brumfield
Jon Laubach
Chris Laubach
George Suiter
Richard Sullivan
Brad Emig
Frank House

There may be a few others I've overlooked as well. 

Jim

dannybb55

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Re: Hand forging barrels
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2012, 04:50:59 AM »
I think that Eric Kettenberg has done it more than once and Jim Everette.

dannybb55

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Re: Hand forging barrels
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2012, 02:14:30 PM »
And Bruce Lepage and probably Magnus Wiberg

Offline AndyThomas

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Re: Hand forging barrels
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2012, 04:19:03 PM »
formerly the "barefoot gunsmith of Martin's Station" (now retired!)

www.historicmartinsstation.com