Smooth bore Fowler

[Harris]

Anyone here ever shoot buckshot in a 20 gauge / 62 caliber smooth bore ? I hear it can be done but dont know that much about it im trying to find out like how many buckshot pellets would you load the barrel with and are there a certain size buckshot i would need to buy. Anyone here that shoots fowlers i would appericate any help you could give me on this subject thank you and for your time Ken.

[James Wilson Everett]

Ken,

I shoot buckshot a lot in a 0.62 bore - both pistol and long gun.  If memory serves I use a #4 buckshot and 9 pellets. These stack in threes cleanly in the 0.62 bore. 

However, I am now very remote from my shooting stuff and am trusting my memory (sometimes faulty), so I hope that someone out there can confirm this.  I do like to size the buckshot to the bore so that three will fit on one level in the bore without any over-lapping.

Have fun,
Jim

[volatpluvia]

Well, double ought would be too big at .33.  You want to have at least two lying flat on each layer.  So you would have to go no bigger than single ought at .31.  Now that leaves no room for a cup around around the shot.  I don't think you should put more than ten down the barrel.  I am not an expert on this however.  also ram the over powder card and cushion wad all the way down and then drop the shot indvidually.  Now if you use the next size smaller you could pour the shot from a container without having a hazard of hanging up in the bore.  How many you would put in I don't know.  Experiment on the light side.  I would think you could use 80 to 90 grains of 2fg.  In my shooting of the twelve gauge with 00 size I did not get great patterns.  Have fun.
Hombre del Bosque

[Harris]

Thanks fellers i greatly appericate all your advice and help on this subject thanks again and for your time Ken.

[FL-Flintlock]

1B (0.30") is as big as you can go with a 2 by 2 stack for a 6 to 8 pellet load; 8 pellets (312-324gr depending on the exact alloy) plus wads, buffer and cup/sleeve will put you just over 400 grains total projectile mass.  Maximum charge is 3.5 drams or 96gr and you'll likely find that 1F powder granulation will produce the best results.

You'll need to use 3B or 4B to get a 3 by 3 stack with a 9 to 15 pellet load.

Proper loading technique is to pour the measured powder charge then insert the OP nitro card flush with the muzzle then put the fiber cushion wad directly on top of it pushing both down only enough to allow for building the shot column.  Place cup/sleeve in bore so it's in contact with the wads then carefully place pellets in 2 by 2 or 3 by 3 configuration as determined by pellet size being used.  Load is capped with the OS wad and seated firmly onto the powder charge as an assembly - this is necessary to help prevent trapping any air or getting a displaced load that can cause an obstructed bore condition.  If you're using a buffer material, a pre-meausured amount according to the buffer & void volume should be put in after each row of pellets is added and properly settled before the next row of pellets are added.  A sleeve/cup is necessary to prevent the pellets from picking up spin by contact with the bore and the sleeve/cup must NOT extend above the top row of pellets as it will prevent the OS card wad from being in firm full contact with the top row of pellets and if it's over the leading edge of the pellets it will not separate correctly after clearing the muzzle.

3B & 4B are far too small for use on larger critters like deer and 1B is stiff borderline even with very close range shots on small deer.  Even running maximum loads, the pellets lack the individual mass-momentum necessary to ensure consistent deep penetration on bigger critters.  For varmints/predators <50# (coon, fox, yotes, ect) a load that holds good patterns is quite effective.

[Daryl]

I bought buck shot for my 20 bore (foxes) when I was a kid - paper cased no less. Seems to me, they were .24" cal. - and 20 of them would be around 7/8oz, which would be right for a 2 3/4" paper case 20 bore low brass buck load. That's 5 stacks of 4 ie: 1 in the middle.

[FL-Flintlock]

I bought buck shot for my 20 bore (foxes) when I was a kid - paper cased no less. Seems to me, they were .24" cal. - and 20 of them would be around 7/8oz, which would be right for a 2 3/4" paper case 20 bore low brass buck load. That's 5 stacks of 4 ie: 1 in the middle.

Daryl,
Your memory is good.  Typical cartridge loads were, and still are, 20-24 pellets of 4B (a/k/a #4 Buck) with a muzzle velocity in the 1025-1150 fps range.  Using the 9-15 pellet range is best to get the MV up as long as you can hold the patterns together.  Higher pellet-count loads at lower MV are okay for close range on small critters but hardly worth the effort when a hot load of regular #4, #3 or #2 birdshot is far less problematic and gives better pattern coverage with bores less than 12ga.  The 12 will do okay on smaller critters with a standard 27 pellet load of 4B inside of 30yds but most patterns fall apart beyond that unless you're custom rolling your own.  I'm not really a fan of buckshot for bigger critters unless it's OOO or OOOO running hot from a 10ga or bigger pipe - even at that the range should be quite limited accordingly.

[Daryl]

Sometimes the memory works - sometimes not so well. I tried the #4 buck for foxes but failed to drip a single one. I found to kill fox with the #4's I had to almost cut all the way through the case in the fiber wad, so the whole thing went out as a slug. That worked.

Buckshot is not a good projectile for any big game in my opinion.  It is even worse for geese as many water folwers have found after wounding 10 out of 11 geese hit with it.  The fellow was a good friend of mine who wounld't listen to my advise against buch shot on geese until after his goose shooting fiascal.

In a shotgun only area, a cousin tried buckshot on whitetails behind his acreage. After wounding and losing 2, he switched to slugs & killed every one he shot at, after that.

Just what use buckshot would be in a muzzleloading fowler, aside from camp protection from 2 legged critters, I do not know. It does not work well on black bears, unles they are within about 6 feet and the buckshot hits as a single bullet.  That worked on head and side chest shots. A round ball or slug would have been better in either case along with much longer killing range.  At 20 yards, the buckshot merely made him angry - the 4th shot killed him.  The patterns were about 10" with all 9 hitting, every time.  A .32 is a squirrel rifle, not a deer or bear rifle. I guess a .25 fits that as well.

[Harris]

Thanks again fellers for your replies and help on this subject i appericate everyones good advice and your time
                                                                Ken.

[FL-Flintlock]

Most all my buck loads were in cartridge, the basis of load building is the same though for ML's, I did work up a load of 000B for a client who wanted to use his 10ga ML in a buckshot-only area for whitetails.  Load was a dozen balls stacked 3x3 cast from WW alloy and quenched from the mold to give about 17 Bhn, wrapped paper sleeve and corn meal buffer over 125 grains of 1F.  It was so thick were he hunted, it was nearly impossible to get a shot beyond 25yds with most being <20yds.  Cylinder bore, just added a wad drag at the muzzle to settle the patterns down, it had no problem keeping all 12 pellets inside 16" @ 25yds.  I know of at least three he's taken with it, worked well but even the higher velocity and the pellets being harder than commercial shot, few produced exit wounds.  Like I said, I wouldn't go any smaller than 000 pellets and keep the range real short.

If your 4B loads weren't knocking the fire out of fox, something was way wrong.  I tuned the Tula choked the slug barrel on my 12ga Mossberg 500 for #2 birdshot which greatly improved the factory load 4B patterns, it'll keep 20 of the 27 pellets inside of 20" @ 30yds but the patterns really starts falling apart beyond by 40yds.  I have 9-pellet handloads using 0.325" cast & quenched WW alloy balls in 3x3 stack, index card sleeve, buffer & pushed with Blue Dot.  I use 3" hulls to allow for an extra cushion wad and roll crimp, no problem keeping all eight inside 20" @ 35yds.  6-pellet load over black powder in Magtek brass hulls was pretty impressive on paper at 20yds from the coach gun but nothing I'd consider acceptable for hunting.

[Daryl]

FL-Flintlock- you've spent a lot more time developing loads and you've found loads that work. The factory 20 bore #4 stuff patterned so poorly, they didn't work on my fox, nor did factory 00 buck work for my cousin who used his duck gun. Slugs worked for both of us.

[FL-Flintlock]

It's not uncommon to get real poor performance from factory loads, or poorly constructed handloads - especially when dealing with big pellets in smaller bores or, in this case, buckshot in a muzzleloader.

Have to touch on nitro cartridge loads just for a point of reference.  Typical factory buck loads are tailored for self defense to be used at ≤10yds (30' which is about the maximum across-the-house shot), those marketed for hunting use are tailored to use at ≤20yds and no one likes to show-off ugly patterns so all anyone typically sees are the cherry-picked pattern pictures.  Of course there's all kinds of marketing sales hype involved but when I put some of the alleged "premium, MAGNUM, premier, gold" bla bla bla ... ammo to paper, the results weren't anywhere near as impressive as the sales hype.

In most cases one could expect patterns of 16-24" at 25yds with just about any generic 12ga load except for 000B size pellets where 3 of the 10 factory loaded rounds tested in two different guns failed to put a single pellet inside the 20" target ring.  I also tried a variety of 27-pellet loads of #4B, typically one could reasonably expect  to see about 50% of the pellets inside 20" @ 25yds ... but ... it's also pretty much guaranteed that the pattern will be blotchy with clumps of pellets here and there with big open holes between them. 

I tested five brands of 20ga with 20-pellet payloads of #3B in three guns, all patterns were erratic, there wasn't any real consistency at all.  One would throw a 2-3 blotches of 3-4 pellets, next round may throw a decent blotch close to the POA while the next could be a widely dispersed pattern.

A few things are consistent no matter if throwing buck from a cartridge or a muzzleloader:
1- A pattern at 10yds is not going to be indicative of the pattern at any range beyond the 30' line.  A tuned load can print good consistent patterns at 25yds and by 30yds it's fallen apart to the point of being worthless.
2- Pellet stacks in a 2x2 arrangement rarely throw consistent patterns.
3- Pellet stacks in 3x3 arrangement lacking a sufficient amount of buffer material tend to produce more fliers and blotches.
4- If you let the pellets ride against the bore (not using a cup/sleeve), you may as well not even bother loading the gun.
5- If you can't keep 100% of 00B or 000B pellets inside a 16" circle centered on the POA, the load is inconsistent and unreliable.
6- If you can't keep 75% of #3B or #4B pellets inside a 20" circle centered on the POA, the load is inconsistent and unreliable.
7- A higher pellet count does not necessarily improve pattern density or consistency.
8- The harder and rounder the pellets, the better they'll pattern - commercial buckshot, even Ni or Cu plated, is not hard - the plating only helps reduce some velocity loss from drag after impact.
9- The total payload of the entire load must be accounted for (wads, buffer, sleeve/cup and pellets).
10- The slower the load accelerates, "tipically" the less problematic it will tend be.

I recall seeing a quote on another forum concerning 00B loads in a 12ga cartridge gun:

I want a load I feel confident with if I run into a 400lb bear at 40yds.

After pushing a lot of buckshot downrange, I can assure you there isn't a single load I would feel anywhere near "confident" with on a 150# bear at 40yds let alone a 400 pounder ... perhaps a couple pounds of .54 balls loaded as buckshot in a 155mm Howitzer but I have no confidence in anything that's shoulder-fired to throw buckshot at long range.   

[bob in the woods]

What are you planning on using this [ buckshot] for ?

[Daryl]

TKS FL - we found buckshot to be downright poor on black bears of only 150 pounds to about 350 heaviest- that's a really good sized, 6 1/2 to 7foot black bear. 
For the buck shot to be bang/flop effective, we found we had to be inside 10' to 12' - THEN, they worked very well. 6' was even better.  I ended up shooting 8 black bears one particularly bad fall while working prowl.  I switched to a rifle after the first- that one I finished with my 1911.  One of my cohorts found the effective range for buckshot was 6 to 12 feet. Many of the guys booked off their prowl shifts or traded them to me, hense I worked a lot of them, that year. 

[FL-Flintlock]

20 feet is about tops for a hot load of 00B or 000B effectiveness on anything that can change your placement on the food chain - any pellets smaller than 00B I wouldn't consider going past 10 feet and I'd more than likely grab for the 1911 first.  Foster style slugs aren't any more reliable either, had a 7/8oz flatten on the shoulder plate of a bore from just 15 feet, that really made him mad.  The only thing I consider "reliable" as a stopping load in a shotgun is a big ole round ball preferably built as a "kill & cripple" load. 

[Daryl]

That's the way I load them!