Author Topic: Which period longrifle maker was the best engraver/why?  (Read 19727 times)

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Which period longrifle maker was the best engraver/why?
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2010, 11:05:48 PM »
I have to say I favor Kuntz, not only for his imaginative artwork, but for the direct, sure execution. Bold, sure lines, one after another, defining the imagery, shading, outlining. He uses a wide range of border designs, adjusted for each workpiece. With all his technical ability, his work reflects a folk art beginning.
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Offline bama

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Re: Which period longrifle maker was the best engraver/why?
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2010, 11:29:53 PM »
Gary I hope you don't mind me bringing this thread back up.

Engraving is just another part of puzzle that I have struggled with in my rifle building. In trying to improve my engraving I have earned a lot of respect for the early builders.

Many rifles are well done from start to finish and there are some that parts do not seem fit the rest of the rifle. Engraving falls into that later category. I have seen a few rifles that have left me believing that the builder who stocked the rifle did not do the carving or possibly the engraving. I have no real basis for this except when I see something that looks out of place on a rifle.

An example of this is the F. Klette rifle. This rifle has great architecture and is a very well built rifle. The engraving on this rifle very well executed but I believe the patch box was engraved off the rifle. I can think that at least 3 different graver's were used, a square, a flat and a round which leads me to believe that whoever did the engraving was a well versed graver.

The part that leads me believe that the engraver did not stock or carve the rifle is the carved design behind the cheek piece. This carving does not flow or is balanced like the engraving. This leads me to believe that the graver may not have even seen the stocked rifle, just the parts that were to be engraved.

That leads me to your question of who is the best engraver and why. I don't think that you can judge the engraving by the name of the builder in all cases. I would rather that a particular engraved rifle be studied and analyzed as to the types of graver's used and the method that they were sharpened and used. Was at the part engraved on the rifle or off and why.

There are many great engraved rifles. Are there any by builders that the engraving varies from rifle to rifle. To answer which is the best would have to be answered by someone much more knowledgeable than me I just know what I like and admire.

I hope to see you in June.
Jim Parker

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Offline Pete G.

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Re: Which period longrifle maker was the best engraver/why?
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2010, 03:01:06 AM »
I think I would have to vote for Melchoir Fordney. Not only well executed but extremely artistic and original. He copied no one and no one copied him. Sort of like French  cars.

projeeper

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Re: Which period longrifle maker was the best engraver/why?
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2010, 05:42:51 AM »
as i,m not a trained eye and very new to this longrifle building,collecting and the study of orginals no one can hold a candle to the builders of today. the members that post pictures of what they,ve finished here and on the blog are the most gifted and talented gunbuilders of all time.look at the lapage rifle posted just today!
 150 years from now folks will be debating this same topic.
 builders of today are the best ever,you guys rock!

Offline JTR

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Re: Which period longrifle maker was the best engraver/why?
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2010, 12:45:06 AM »
Jeeper,
While it certainly can’t be denied that some great guns are being made today, comparing them to the originals is sort of like comparing apples to oranges.
Most of the great originals are now 200 years old, or even considerably older. And a good number of them were used on a regular basis, most through the flint era and well into the percussion era. Also, a lot of them weren’t given the best of care, especially in their later years, because obviously they didn’t come out of the gunshop busted and bruised with 200 years of patina on them.
Today’s guns mostly hang out in a gun case, maybe go to the range once in a while, or go out hunting a couple times a year. 200 years from now, I’ll bet the survivors will look as nice as they do now!
John
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Offline flintriflesmith

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Re: Which period longrifle maker was the best engraver/why?
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2010, 01:15:18 AM »
as i,m not a trained eye and very new to this longrifle building,collecting and the study of orginals no one can hold a candle to the builders of today. the members that post pictures of what they,ve finished here and on the blog are the most gifted and talented gunbuilders of all time.look at the lapage rifle posted just today!
 150 years from now folks will be debating this same topic.
 builders of today are the best ever,you guys rock!

Jeeper,
As the original poster of this question I think it fair to say that I think the thread should stick to the topic of period work. :) There are countless reasons that comparing modern work with period work is apples and watermelons! Personally I think comparing 1780 work to 1830 work is in itself a huge stretch because what some folks identify as an individual smith's style is actually a style shift from rococo to neoclassical design.
Gary
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Offline J. Talbert

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Re: Which period longrifle maker was the best engraver/why?
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2010, 03:00:41 AM »
Bama,

While your point that, some rifles were not necessarily engraved by the builder may certainly true, I think there are enough examples of builders whose style is so distinctive, cohesive, and often repeated, that it's practically as identifiable as a signature.
I'd say that Eister certainly falls into this group, as do others. (Eister is the one I'm most familiar with).

I wish we had more examples to illustrate the works of some of the others mentioned, for those of us who may not be familiar with some of the makers.  I love the detailed photos of the originals!

Jeff
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Offline Majorjoel

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Re: Which period longrifle maker was the best engraver/why?
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2010, 03:34:00 PM »
Another factor to consider is how much wear has taken it's toll on many of these 200 yr old rifles. Brass being as soft as it is will surely give up its engraved lines readily to just one polish fanatic. Perhaps it should be mentioned that some engravers cut much deeper into the metal than others. Their work had a better chance of survival over the years. That does not make the bold deep cuts better artisticly than the light handed masters! I consider the work of Andrew Kopp. His design and executions were quite well done. He did have a light hand on this particular work so I can only wonder what much of the forward finial engraving was like. A good thing about having an online museum and library to study from........is I can pretty much find the answers with a fair amount of certainty. ;)     
« Last Edit: February 13, 2010, 04:14:49 PM by Captjoel »
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Offline bama

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Re: Which period longrifle maker was the best engraver/why?
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2010, 09:50:36 PM »
Jeff I hope that I did not sound that I thought all engraved rifles were not engraved by there builders. That is far from the case. What I was trying to point out was that I think the method of the engraving, the layout and design, the differnt types of gravers used, if or if not the work was done on the rifle. More along the lines studing the actual cuts and how they were made. Looking at the engraving from this view rather than taking the work as a whole and say that it looks nice or is well exicuted. Lets look a little deeper and find out why it does.

When I first started engraving everyone told me that a 90 deg graver was all that I needed. Well for most of the cuts that is right but there are cuts that can not be made with the 90 and they are needed to get the work to look as nice as we see them today.

OK now which cuts were made with the 90 and which ones were not, only close study can determine.

Like I said there are many fine engraved rifles to study, different styles, differnt methods used, why try to single out just one builder- lets enjoy them all.
Jim Parker

"An Honest Man is worth his weight in Gold"

Offline Dave B

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Re: Which period longrifle maker was the best engraver/why?
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2010, 10:22:16 PM »
I have listened to collectors talk about the unsigned rifles being attributed to a particular maker by the very fact that the engraving or carving was in its self a signature of the maker. Just as your knowledge of words determins IQ The vocabulary of engraving details IE the individuals cuts, shading and elements can constitute a signature for that maker. I think you can make a logical choice as to who was the periods most skilled engraver by who has the biggest engraving vocabulary.
With this in mind maybe some one will recognize the maker who engraved this patch box.




Some engraving is with out a doubt the work of a particular maker. Who did this?



I think looking at all of the rifles I have to date I can only speak with regards to what I have been exposed to but clearly this last photo is of one of the top three of the golden age.  I am sure If we had a good series of photos of the top contenders we could be more conclusive
« Last Edit: February 13, 2010, 11:26:18 PM by Dave B »
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Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: Which period longrifle maker was the best engraver/why?
« Reply #35 on: February 29, 2012, 11:40:51 PM »
I wouldn't argue the best, but I'd put him up there with the big boys.  Wm. Shreckengost could do some
nice work in brass, silver and steel.





« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 11:45:59 PM by Rob Watt (suzkat) »
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Offline Swampwalker

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Re: Which period longrifle maker was the best engraver/why?
« Reply #36 on: February 29, 2012, 11:58:56 PM »
Wellll, Rob, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.  Shrenckengost was certainly a master at coverage!

Offline Majorjoel

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Re: Which period longrifle maker was the best engraver/why?
« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2012, 01:41:57 PM »
That W. Shreckengost rifle is an artistic beauty Rob! I find it interesting that fine engraving can make the total difference between a plain working gun and a cherished work of art.
Joel Hall

Offline Majorjoel

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Re: Which period longrifle maker was the best engraver/why?
« Reply #38 on: March 01, 2012, 02:04:38 PM »
One of the great things about the study of original longrifles is that in time pieces come our way that previously we knew nothing about. That goes not only for a particular rifle but a maker as well. I mentioned in an earlier post about engraving that was done by a delicate hand vs deep and pronounced cuts. The later truley stands up much better with the test of time. Fortunately this fine and light work by A.B. Smith has escaped much of times ravages. I like his engraving work very much and feel that it does make the difference between art and working function.    
« Last Edit: March 01, 2012, 02:06:05 PM by Majorjoel »
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Offline kutter

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Re: Which period longrifle maker was the best engraver/why?
« Reply #39 on: March 13, 2012, 03:20:44 AM »
I've looked through the pages of this thread with no knowledge of early makers. I couldn't ID one from another if you paid me. I don't recognize nearly any of the names and couldn't place the ones that do sound familiar into a 'school'.  I'm not a student of the LR, but I do build a few. I am an engraver with 40+ years at it, most full time.
I will only say that the one engraver/maker pictured that stands out for it's design, layout, line width, shading etc is Eister.

There may well be others, but as I said, I'm not student of these guys or their work. Just looking at the pics in the thread.

The others work range from barely knowledgable of the craft,,, to knowing the mechanics of engraving but not the artistic side of it.
I'm just judging on what I see of the pics posted, not against what is done by contemporary engravers/builders.
The basics of scroll layout have always been the same wether it is today, or 300 years ago.
Poor layout cannot be made up for with good cutting. Most often they do not go hand in hand as a persons skills develop in both aspects of the field as you practice. Or at least you hope them to.

Eister's simple smooth running scroll, use of diminishing width of line, correct shading, clean smooth scroll break offs are just classic. They could all be used in any style of cutting or his pattern could be expanded to further cover an area w/o it looking filled in for no other reason than to fill it in.
Very simple scroll,,not filled with un-necessary elements & shade lines. But it does all it needs to do with those simple lines because it's cut so well.

You can go any direction with it and I think he's the only one that uses a reverse scroll style in his pattern. That gives it alot of options in layout and coverage. Especially useful on odd shaped parts, plus it has a very nice look to it.

Learning the mechanics of engraving can be taught to most anyone. Lines can be cut in metal with a hammer & chisel or a graver and designs can be put down. The other half of the skill needed to be a good engraver is that sense of balance and design in layout.
When everthing works,,you have a cleanly cut,,smooth scrolls, thick and thin lines (for a reason), correct shading, long sweeping gentle curves where they need to be, and a result that compliments the part.

Without it, the results are designs that lack everything from smooth form, clean cut lines w/ over runs & design elements that don't fit in, shading in every which direction, ect.  
Filling up a part with lines and poorly shaped scroll running every which direction is not good engraving,,even if cut well.

Not putting down any maker/engraver. They did what they were capable of. But just as it is now,,some are way better at it that others. Some show little talent at the point the rifles in the pics were engraved beyond basicly knowing how to get a graver to cut.
JMHO.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2012, 03:26:46 AM by kutter »

Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Which period longrifle maker was the best engraver/why?
« Reply #40 on: March 13, 2012, 05:48:46 AM »
John Brooks of Harrisburg had a fine hand with a tool. Not too easy to find his work, but it is without peer
I believe when you do see it. Funny how some makers were better at carving than engraving, or vice versa, and some excelled in both.   
Dick

Offline JTR

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Re: Which period longrifle maker was the best engraver/why?
« Reply #41 on: March 13, 2012, 05:58:24 AM »
Well Kutter, you hit right on part of the allure of collecting Kentucky rifles, and missed the point all together!  :o

None of these old guns are perfect. None are the same.

Most were made in small shops, and the guy that inlet the barrel into the wood is likely the same guy that carved the wood, and engraved the brass. Whether he was a master of all these tasks, or a master of none, wasn't as big a deal then as it would be now. The guy was the Gunsmith, maybe the only gunsmith for a good long distance and what he made is what you got.

Today, we can look at the remains of his labor, and think that ol’ guy didn’t have a clue. Or look at his guns and appreciate them for what they were, whether they compete with today's standards or not.  

And you gotta admit, a nice old Kentucky would look completely foolish covered with microscopically perfect English scroll!
Nor would it be as interesting!  

John
« Last Edit: March 13, 2012, 06:22:53 AM by JTR »
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Offline kutter

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Re: Which period longrifle maker was the best engraver/why?
« Reply #42 on: March 13, 2012, 05:04:22 PM »
Well Kutter, you hit right on part of the allure of collecting Kentucky rifles, and missed the point all together!  :o

None of these old guns are perfect. None are the same.
......


No I get the point of the allure thing. It's the same reason people collect 50's and 60's era Winchester engraved firearms,,or look at AH Fox engraving from the post WW1 era and exclaim it's beauty.
But if you ask the same question about those guns,,you'll get my same answer in response to the quality of the engraving.
Cartoon like animals and poor quality cutting covers most of them,,a few exceptions,,, but the price paid for them is not reflected in that. It's that allure thing again.

If you want to look at the engraving and judge the engraving on it's quality of cut, layout, execution, ect, then do that.

The original question was 'which period maker was the best engraver and why?'
I think I answered that w/o any personal likes/dislikes entering the picture.
 As I said I'm not familiar with any of these gents,,just judging the work as pictured and from an engravers perspective.
Matters not if they worked 300 yrs ago or today really. The basic tool(s) are the same.

I'm not a historian type,,but I'd guess sunlight and oil lamp light was the same in the New World as it was in the Old World at the time. A bench is a bench, hammer a hammer, etc.
No reason someone that was a good engraver/gun maker in Europe suddenly becomes a poor engraver/gun maker after emmigrating to the Americas. Nor do they necessarily have to do sub-par work just because they are working here or learned the craft here.
Their work simply reflects the level of skill they have achieved.
Engraving is engraving. Quality is quality and that has always been and has never changed.
If it's good quality, I say so and why. If not I say so and why. Some can't except that. Everyone wants a trophy

"None are perfect none are the same"...So where does that fit into the 'Who's the best engraver' question.
Style of scroll is unimportant in judging quality.
'Full coverage English scroll would look out of place',,,that's an opinion of what's correct for the period. Has nothing to do with anything here. I never said any of these guns should display that style.
If the maker decided to cut English Rose & Scroll,,then that is what he decides. If you don't like it on that particular firearm, then that is a call you make based on personal likes and dislikes.
However,if the scroll is well cut, then you can admire the engraver was a skilled one.

As I said, I am not putting anyone down. Everyone has different skill levels. Same then as now.
If the rifle maker was a mostly full time blacksmith, I certainly wouldn't expect to see the engraving finely cut (but you never know!).
But can we be truthfull about it and critique it honestly.

 The Winchester Custom Shop in the 50's and 60's had quite a few engravers working in house.
I can't think of one that I'd put in a Master catagory (and I personally dislike the rating system use).
Some were downright crude in their cuttings.
One was a milling machine operator at Win that wanted to be an engraver and the union gave him the job through the bidding process.
But he tried and did his best I'm sure,,his work never attained any great quality. It does have 'allure' though! as it comes from the Custom Shop.
He could have been the blacksmith making a rifle 200 years earlier that also engraved his work.

Tools were the same, Kusmit Brothers and Company at Big Red W had the advantages of E-lectric lights and all,,but Mr Eister layed out & cut a much better scroll than they IMHO.

..and the question was asked..'who was the better period engraver and why'. I could have looked at candle holders engraved by all these guys and the answer would be the same.
Take the 'allure' of the LR out of the picture , the personal likes and dislikes in style and judge the specific skills.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2012, 01:00:09 AM by kutter »

MarkEngraver

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Re: Which period longrifle maker was the best engraver/why?
« Reply #43 on: March 14, 2012, 06:15:38 AM »
Kutter,

I have to stand with you on this one.
I appreciate and agree with all that you have said, and frankly, you have made the point !

from an "engravers perspective"
Mark


Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Which period longrifle maker was the best engraver/why?
« Reply #44 on: March 14, 2012, 04:18:51 PM »
Excellent discussion. Now for us builders the question is how to best replicate the engraving we want on a gun....can I do it or do I need to hire someone else?...who??

If if is a pure fantasy gun then the engraving style and quality should coincide with the fantasy narrative,,,,  that's cool to.... allure is Ok in the right place.... and best quality artistic engraving is cool ...in the right place.  Thanks for taking this on directly.  I have learned a lot.  Great topic Gary!!
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