Jaeger rifles

[The other DWS]

is there a good reference source on Jaegers in North America?   I have been eyeballing one for almost 6 years in a courthouse exhibit case IN a small southern Indiana town that has strong German emigrant/immigrant traditions.  It has been laying in a dark case, lock side down for all these years.

 Today I finally found someone with a key to the case and got a better look.  I'll be working there again in a couple more months and have made arrangements to get it out again for a more detailed look, measurements and photos. No one in the courthouse knows anything about it but I have a lead to a local guy who is sort of the local authority on the german settler families who might be able to help
  It is typical (at least to my limited perceptions)  with a wooden patch box (lid still there)  large bore short swamped rifle barrel, min 60 cal,  it had DST but the back one has been removed.  the lock is a Rottsdam percussion replacement. the P-lock seems to fit fairly well in the original mortice, good for length and screw matchup with the original sideplate and only slightly narrower than the original on the back quarter or so of the lock plate---based on the fit.
 It looks like the stock is original with original brass furniture--minus the forward sling ring, the stud for the back one is still in place.  forward ramrod pile is missing and the ramrod is an iron replacement. front sight is a small brass bump dovetailed into the barrel.  the rear sight is exactly like one of the TOTW Jaeger sights, fixed and folding blade with a fancy little forward finale .

At this point I'm speculating it was a family heirloom brought west to IN in the 1810--1830 period  and later "improved for local use with the addition of the percussion lock and removal of the setting trigger.
Other than the Pottsdam marking on the lock I did not see any other markings, but the time I had with it ws short and the light was not real good.  Are there any characteristics that would differentiate between an american made one and an Euro-made one?  any thing that might help guestimate a date for it?

[mr. no gold]

What wood is the gun stocked in? If maple, it makes a pretty good case that it might be a US gun. Walnut doesn't rule it out completely, but you will need to get a wood sample of sufficient size to send to the Natl Lab for testing to see if it is American walnut. They can usually tell. I don't have the info to direct you to that resource, but you should be able to google it and find the address. Better yet, someone here will probably have it. Given that there is no signature and the lock has been changed out, there won't be too many clues there. Good luck and please post some photos of the old thing when you get them. We all like to see new material. Are there any KY Rifles in the museum? How about horns?
Dick

[Jim Kibler]

In the vast majority of cases, it will be readily apparent wether it is European or American to those who are knowledgeable.  In a very few cases, this will be uncertain and at this point, wood analysis can be beneficial.  Get some good photos, share them with knowledgable folks and you should get your answers.

[The other DWS]

I don't know if I will be allowed to disassemble it or not. I'm just really grateful that they let me get it out of the case.  (I've been trying to get that for almost 6 years of quarterly visits)

I suspect that this may be a really significant artifact of the town's early history that has gotten lost over the years as "just another old gun"   I'm hoping to convince "the powers that be" that its worth investigating.
  Since I also have a strong interest in Schuetzen I think there might be a possibility of working with the local historical society to develop something of public interest for their local OktoberFest.

 I'll need to check out how much of a sample of wood would be needed.  I might be able to get a splinter out of the barrel channel--if its permitted--if I can convince them its needed to determine if it was Am or euro origin.   Has anyone here done that?  can anyone point me in the right direction?  I'm assuming that barrel channel wood is pretty contaminated, but then we are not talking carbon-14 or DNA analysis I guess.


Any reference books?   I'm not sure how to use the ALR archives, particularly how to search by "type"  for jaegers. Maybe someone can advise me, or PM me on that

[Mark Tyler]

As far as reference books I'd start with Jaeger Rifles  by George Shumway. http://www.shumwaypublisher.com/store/shop/item.asp?itemid=21&catid=3

For wood testing see: http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/research/centers/woodanatomy/wood_idfactsheet.php

[JTR]

I might be able to get a splinter out of the barrel channel--if its permitted--if I can convince them its needed to determine if it was Am or euro origin.   Has anyone here done that?   I'm assuming that barrel channel wood is pretty contaminated, but then we are not talking carbon-14 or DNA analysis I guess.

I've done it several times.
The forestry guys need a sample about 1/2" long, and about 1/8" X 1/8". The 1/2" length needs to be cut along the grain, and not across it.
Also, the sample needs to be clean as possible. I think the micro Analise it, then vaporize it and compare the spectrum with known samples.
However, the last sample I sent was walnut, and the question was American or Euro. At least on that sample, they couldn't determine positively one way or the other.

I don't have the address handy, but Googling Forestry service and micro analyzing, should find it.

John

[Jim Kibler]

One more time.  Forget about the wood sample.  Get some photos, share them with knowledgeable folks and that will most likely answer your questions.

[Hurricane ( of Virginia)]

The is a Jaeger Collecting organization of US which coul, pehaps , lead you to the information you seek.
http://www.germanguns.com/
hurricane

[The other DWS]

Jim,  I don't think the wood sample test will fly anyway.  I suppose that if one could convince them you could drill a small plug out form under the buttplate but I'm not about to push my luck by even asking.   I've been a museum director and I know how possessive the "local blue-haired ladies league" can get--believe me.   BTDT too many times.
maybe farther down the road, IF it becomes critical to identifying--then---maybe.

I'm just doing a search/bookmark session on all the jaeger references I can locate on the site here.  I want to really get prepared before I get back down there in a couple more months.  just ordered the Shumway booklet FWIW

[Mark Tyler]

Be sure to take good photos and post here on ALR.

[mkeen]

Wood identification from the U.S. Forest Service.

Wood testing will not, I repeat will not tell you where the wood was cut. They can only identify the species at best. If the gunstock is made from English walnut grown in the good old USA they will tell you it is English walnut , but cannot identify where the wood is from. Just because it is English walnut does not mean the gun is from Europe! English walnut trees were planted in the Americas by the earliest settlers.

Martin Keen

[verbrugen]

Keep in mind that if you can determine a family name, or even have a listing of probable names, of where this rifle came from it is not out of the question to track down the  specific German (Hesse-Hanau, Hesse-Cassel, Braunsweig, etc.) Jaeger group or individual that carried this rifle.  The Johannes Schwalms Society  ( http://www.jsha.org/)  can be very helpful if you can get a name. Is this a simple military style Jaeger rifle or fancier civilian type with carvings engravings?  Also does it have a thumbpiece?  round, oval, and what type of engraving does it have on the thumbpeice, Look for a stylized FL or double C as examples    If the barrel is from a military Jaeger rifle it will most likely have been stamped with makers marks and proof stamps.  I will be very interested in seeing images of this rifle.

Jeff