Barrel retention in full length Hawken stock

[Martin_G]

I'm a little curious about barrel retention in a full length Hawken stock. To be historically correct for an 1840 era Hawken, should you use barrel pins, wedge keys, or escutcheons w/ wedge keys.

A buddy of mine wants to change the configuration on his rifle from a half-stock to a full stock but he isn't sure which method to use for that time period.


Thanks,

Martin

[Chuck Burrows]

The most common method on fullstock Hawken's is wedge keys without escutcheon plates.

The mid-1850's era fullstock in the Smithsonian does have escutcheon plates so the use of them can be documented.

[Martin_G]

Would you happen to know what type of retention may have been used around 1840 or shortly before since he's decided to use a flint lock instead of percussion.


I looked at the Hawken online at the Cody Museum and although I don't recall the year it was made, it did have a cap lock and it looked like it might have been pins or wedge keys with small heads.


Its a shame that the rifles aren't documented better but then that would take some of the fun away looking for info thats almost like putting a puzzle together.



Thanks,

Martin

[The other DWS]

try the "search tool"   using "Hawken/flint/lock"  there are a couple discussions they you might find useful.

[rsells]

There is a full stock on display at the Cody Museum.  I don't remember the web site, but if you can get on it, you will be able to pull up photographs of this rifle from several different views.  I looked at their rifles that were on display but can't remember for sure how this one was finished.  I think it had wedges without plates, but can't remember for sure.  Sorry, I can't be of more help.
                                                                 Roger Sellws

[Herb]

Martin, Jim Gordon has a museum at Glorieta, NM (near SanteFe) in which he has about two dozen original Hawkens and probably that many Lemans.  This rack shows some Hawkens, the bottom four on the wall are fullstock, plus the one under the bag.  My photo is not clear enough, but I think they are all keyed, without escutcheons.

This is a closeup of a couple of them.  You can enlarge these photos on your computer, on my IBM-type, I hold down control and hit the plus sign, minus makes smaller, and control zero returns to normal.

Jim Gordon published a three-volume set of books "Great Gun Makers for the Early West", volume III has photos of these Hawkens.  He has color photos of six fullstock rifles, one cut to halfstock.  All are keyed with no escutcheons.  One has four keys, the others three.  He also has photos of two halfstocks with keys but no escutcheons.

[Chuck Burrows]

Would you happen to know what type of retention may have been used around 1840 or shortly before since he's decided to use a flint lock instead of percussion.
I looked at the Hawken online at the Cody Museum and although I don't recall the year it was made, it did have a cap lock and it looked like it might have been pins or wedge keys with small heads.
Its a shame that the rifles aren't documented better but then that would take some of the fun away looking for info thats almost like putting a puzzle together.
Thanks,

Martin

Circa 1840 would have used wedges generally with small rectangular heads. Later Hawkens have wedges with small oval heads although Don Stith's fullstock of circa 1840 also has the oval heads - there are several pics of it here starting on page 2 including a pic of the wedge head
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=8944.15


IMO you need to check out John Baird's books on Hawkens as well as Jim Gordon's if possible - best way may be via interlibrary loan since all are quite expensive. On the BBHC/Cody site you can also zoom in on the pics for closeups.

[Dphariss]

Would you happen to know what type of retention may have been used around 1840 or shortly before since he's decided to use a flint lock instead of percussion.


I looked at the Hawken online at the Cody Museum and although I don't recall the year it was made, it did have a cap lock and it looked like it might have been pins or wedge keys with small heads.


Its a shame that the rifles aren't documented better but then that would take some of the fun away looking for info thats almost like putting a puzzle together.



Thanks,

Martin

Keys.

Escutcheons? Just because no early FS rifles survive with them is no proof they were never used. It is safer from the HC standpoint to leave them out or do something like the ones on the early 1/2 stock rifle in Baird's book. The "Petersen" Hawken.
The iron late oval would be a no-no.

Dan