Stock is cracking

[Cory Joe Stewart]

Hello everyone.  I went to shoot today and before I fired a shot I noticed a crack on the outside of the stock above the sideplate.  See photo below.



I decided it was best not to shoot and brought it home for a closer inspection.  I noticed another crack foiming under the sideplate that appears to be following the grain pattern.  It does not appear to be connected directly to the other crack.  See photo below




I then pulled the lock out and found another crack forming there.  It is in roughly the same spot as the crack on the other side, but I cannot tell for sure.  I cannot get a good photo of it, but it runs from under the bolster where the bolt comes in running toward the sear bar.  It does not go through the beefier wood just under the lock bolster.



I know how to fix this, just not sure what is causiing it.  The rifle has been fired about 20 times with 60 grains of powder.  I am 99.9% sure that the crack on the outside was not there after I shot it last.  I am sure I would have noticed that when I cleaned it.  My suspicion is that the lock bolt is binding with the lug.  You can see part of the lug in one of the photos coming into the hole.  I knew it was tight but thought tight was good. 

I know you folks are going to be full of suggestions and I cannot wait to read them.  Thank you all.

Coryjoe

[Don Getz]

Coryjoe...........the first thing I would do is to open up the hole thru the bolster of the breechplug.  Apparently your barrel
is moving back when you fire it.  I would glass bed the very breech end of the barrel.   I think those two things will cure
the problem..........Don

[Cory Joe Stewart]

Don,

Thank you, as always you are very helpful.  What does glass bed mean?

Coryjoe

[EC121]

+1 with Mr. Getz
     The wood could be moving with the changes in humidity and being stressed from tight inletting.  Also the lock screw stresses the wood when it is tightened and creates a place to start a crack.  Not saying you are doing it, but some people also try to climb the ramrod when loading and flex the wrist of the rifle.  All this causes the grain to give up.  With the lock, barrel and sideplate being inlet there isn't much wood in that area to carry the load.  I would carefully(from the inside and behind the sideplate) apply some thin super glue into the crack then glass bed the breech.  

[kutter]

That upper bolt hole in the stock on the left side looks elongated to the rear somewhat. The hole through the breech tang out of alignment with it.
I'd go back in and give the area (wood) below the surface some extra room around the breech pin, back surface of the bbl and perhaps even the last 1 to 2 inches of bbl itself.
Open up the hole through the breech pin so it clears the side plate bolt.
Open the hole in the wood also a bit.

Then glass bed all those areas in the wood for a tight fit.
Removing the extra wood as above will allow for some extra bit of glass bedding to flow into the areas for strength, plus will elliminate any hidden inletting areas causing problems at the breech end.
You can most likely get the glass to flow into the cracks with a bit of effort. With the metal out of the wood, that area will flex very easily to allow glass bedding matrl to enter,,but be careful.
Sometimes cutting the crack out a little from the inside to allow glass to bind it together is a good move. Don't disturb the outside finished area of the wood and little will be seen of the repair if it's a clean break like this.

Clear the breech pin hole of any excess glass mat'l that may settle into it in the bedding process.
You want that to have clearance for the side plate bolt to pass through it and not become a cross wedge in the wood should the bbl set back in firing (it shouldn't after being glass bedded at the breech, but clearance is good as the wood can still be effected by humidity changes).

Make sure the tang screw draws the bbl down securely and is not stripped.

[LRB]

  If possible, you can drill or cut holes/ trenches, on both sides of the cracks, inside of course, and the glass bedding will also act somewhat like  pinch dogs. May not increase the strength much, but can't hurt.

[Frank Savage]

+1 to all above. Plus get some "standard" epoxy glue (not the bedding compund) mix it, heat it in some containment (small tuna can or whatever) in double boiler to about 60-70° C-then it will flow like water-and do your best to pry some into the cracks, while opening them as much as just not cracking the whole thing up. Then bed the barrel and bolts. I would suggest getting another bolt (preferably with allen head) and some large washers, make some aditional soft washer from plastic bottle (to protect the wood and metal finish) and use this instead the designed tang bolt to tighten the $#*! out of it (edit: Just until the epoxy and bedding cures, of course-for 2-4 days).
IF itīs just a tang screw (wood screw), do anything to place some threaded boss onto trigger plate, even if it will need welding-and use a solid bolt all the way through. Seems to me thereīs somehow enought space for it, maybe just drilling and tapping a hole into the trigger plate is possible. AND, bed the trigger plate also, esp. in the front.
Sorry to say, but it seems to me that the wood has somehow wrong grain orientation, so most of the recoil is not held by strenght in pressure/shear along the grain, but rather by strenght in pull tangentialy to the grain-which is often much lower (like 10-20 times less in most of the species). So without good epoxy job, liberate bedding and tang BOLT from tang into triggerplate, this stock is toasted and likely to let the barrel to make some exploration journey into yout eye and head. No matter itīs a patched ball rifle and not a LR hand artillery spiting 500 grs of lead at 1200 fps.
Think three times, do your best, eventualy make a new stock (sorry to say it, it hurts, I know)-good luck in not being known as "Pole-eyed John"

[The other DWS]

You might consider using a thin penetrating wicking-grade CA adhesive,  (I use Loc-Tite 420) and clamping the cracks.  I also use it to reinforce/harden barrel pin holes in the wood from inside the barrel channel.
Under the sideplate, if the wood is thick enough I'd consider inletting a staple or two across that developing crack and then Glass bedding the sideplate in place over the top of the staples.
  I have used Brownells Acra-Glas bedding compound in both gel and liquid form over the years with happy results (as long as release compound is used properly although "gluing" the sideplate in might not be a bad idea on that particular rifle  JMHO) it also comes with a little packet of dye that lets you tint the epoxy mix so it isn't quite so blatant.

bedding is easy to do, its basically a 2 part epoxy mix that you use to fill the gaps and reinforce and a coating that
 you paint or spray on the metal to keep from gluing it together permanently.  you also have to avoid filling undercuts ,slots or holes in the metal so the hardened epoxy does not mechanically lock/wedge the parts in

[The other DWS]

Follow up question triggered by this thread:

Is the lock-bolt hole through the breech-plug lug supposed to be tightly fitted of drilled out?

Or does that basically depend on the tightness, nature, and condition of the stock wood the breech butts against?  By extension I guess the same question could apply to the barrel pins and lugs, or e-keys ?

[Cory Joe Stewart]

The tang bolt is threaded into the trigger plate and seems to be holding fine. 

Coryjoe

[bgf]

Follow up question triggered by this thread:

Is the lock-bolt hole through the breech-plug lug supposed to be tightly fitted of drilled out?

Drilled out so it doesn't touch the lock bolt at all, with enough margin so that it won't touch the lock bolt even when recoil eventually drives the barrel back a fraction of an inch when the wood gives -- which it almost certainly will after a few shots.  Actually, I like the lug to be notched instead of drilled, so that you don't have to remove the lock to remove the barrel, which also seems to eliminate another way to split the stock (trying to pull out barrel with lockscrew still in tang lug).

[Daryl]

The warmed, thin epoxy or Acra-glass thin mix is much better for repairing cracks than CA glue.  If ou are unable to use epoxy, then the CA will have to do. Do not use kicker with it as that will weaken the joint. You need to get as much inside the crack as possible, then clamp the stock to close the crack. Leave it for a good 12 hours- 24 is better. It won't take that long, but do it anyway, I would.
 
I've repaired a lot of stocks on modern guns, and the thinned, slow curing, 24 hour epoxy is the better than any single component glue.  AcraGlass thin mixture is the very best.  Leaving a light bulb on it until it cures is a good idea too, to help with the penetration and soak into the wood.

Properly done, the joint repaired with epoxy, is stronger than new wood.  Of course, after the repair, open up screw holes, and bed the tang and breech.

[bluenoser]

I will defer to Don and other much more knowledgable members with regard to rectifying the problem that caused the crack.  My intent is to address only the repair of the crack.  I would not use a cyanoacrylate or an epoxy in this repair.  If I am not mistaken, CAs rapidly lose strength as the film thickness increases and I suspect the short working time might be a challenge - given the steps necessary to thoroughly coat the surfaces of the cracks.  I don't know what the strength of a good CA joint is.  Epoxy doesn't have the strength of other alternatives when used on wood and I believe it has a tendency to creep.  I have never tried to heat it to get it to flow and have stored that tip in the old memory bank for future reference.

I would not remove any wood to get get the glue where it needs to be or to build the glue up to any thickness.  Your objective should be to get complete coverage while maintaining a thin film thickness.

I think the best glue for the job is a PVA wood glue such as Titebond.  As I recall, the joint strength is in the area of 3000 PSI, which exceeds the strength of the surrounding wood, and it has good flowability and adequate open time.  In addition, it cleans up easily with a damp cloth.

If you rub the glue into the crack and then flex it closed a few times while periodically rubbing more glue into the crack, you may well be able to work it right through to the other side.  Another method I use with success is to rub glue into the crack and then give it a blast with compressed air.  Repeat as necessary.  It can get a bit messy, but I don’t recall this method ever letting me down.

I think the best way to clamp it would be to wrap the area with surgical tubing or a strip of innertube.   If you coat the adjacent finished surfaces with paste wax before gluing, any squeeze out should flake right off.

There are more than one way to skin a cat.  That's the way I'd do it.

Laurie

[Cory Joe Stewart]

I have used tight bond to fill cracks and close them on other things, but never a gun.  But I think it should work. 

My greatest concern is whether or not it is an issue with the grain and configuration of the stock.  If that is the case it will only happen again. 

Been looking up glass bedding.  Saw a youtube clip from midway that helped a lot. 

Thanks all

Coryjoe

[bluenoser]

Coryjoe,

As I see it, you have two challenges.  First, repair the crack.  Second, stop it from recurring.  I think Don and others have hit the nail on the head with regard to the second challenge.  That lock bolt hole sure looks oval and the cracks do seem to originate there.  If there is inadequate clearance between the breech plug and the lock bolt, recoil can be transferred directly to the lock bolt and the wood behind it.  Given the grain direction in that area, it wouldn't take much to start a crack.

I'm betting if you work glue well into the crack, get it pulled up tight and follow the advice of others with regard to bedding the breech and providing adequate clearances, it will be as good as new and the crack will not recur.

Laurie

[Dphariss]

Don,

Thank you, as always you are very helpful.  What does glass bed mean?

Coryjoe

Over tightening the lock screw can cause this.

Glas-bedding.
Go to a guns shop, buy a box of acra-glas gel from Brownell's its the Green Box.
Read instructions.
I recommend paste floor wax for a release agent. Any metal part MUST be coated so that it will not stick OR form a mechanical lock if the epoxy invades an area. Wax can be used to fill areas on the metal that might form a lock if even if the epoxy does not stick.
Flat areas need to have a thin even coat rubbed on than another thin even coat.
Too thick and it ruins the fit.
Let the wax dry then glas-bed. Best to wax the exterior wood as well. It will keep the glas from sticking to the finish. During the process it will turn up in strange places. if you get a little on a finger for example.
When fully set remove the wood. They may tend to stick slightly but heating the metal to 150-200 degrees will usually release or a sharp rap or two on the metal to shock the bond to the wax.
Study the process and THINK.
Dan

[rsells]

I have repaired a couple rifles in the past that have been in worse shape than yours using Brownell's Acra-Glass liquid with good results.  I done three things to make the fix:
-  I flowed the liquid epoxy into the cracks and pulled the stock back together using surgical tubing.  The more times I wraped the stock the tighter it gets.  You could also use some kind of weight to pull the top of the wrist down while having the stock proped up on the toe and the forearm to get a tight fit in the cracked area.
-  After the liquid bedding compound has set up for approximately five hours, I drilled a whole in the wood going downward from under the tang.  I used the drill and tap combination that I normally use for 8 x 32 holes in the lock plate.  I then threaded a lock bolt shaft all the way to the head with 8 x 32 threads.  I then cut the head off the metal screw and cut a slot in one end for a screw driver.  Next, I took a file and cut three groves along the length of the screw shaft to allow liquid Acra-Glass to flow back out of the blind whole I threaded into the wood.  Cut the all thread to the length that would be just below the surface of the inlet under the tang, rub liquid bedding compound into the blind hole running through the two sections of wood that have previously been glued back together, and finally clean up the tang inlet after the epoxey has cured.
- Next, I done like Don said to do, and bedded the back of the breech plug and barrel  to get a perfect fit.
                                                                                 Roger Sells
-

[Lucky R A]

Correy,
        Don't get too upset about the crack,  I would bet fully 1/3 or more of original rifles have a crack from the rear bolt hole exactly the same as yours.  The old guys usually slotted the hole through the bolster, but even that doesn't help if the barrel sets back in the wood and hits the lock bolt.   
         The solution is exactly what you got in the first post from Don, glue up the cracks and then glass bed the back of the breech and tang area.  Personally I use Acraglas gel for this.  It stays where I put it and does not run into places you don't want it.  The trick is to not glue your barrel or any bolts into the stock.   I long ago ditched the release agent and use Pam cooking spray as a release. It works well, is easy to coat the parts and no dry time required.   I also use modeling clay to fill in any little voids at the rear of the barrel where the breech plug may set in a bit further than the rear of the barrel itself.  After about 6 hours I remove
the tang bolt and the metal rod that I insert through the lock bolt hole.  I also break the barrel loose and then tape it back into place until the epoxy is fully cure.  Good luck, you will soon forget this ever happened and the repair should be permanent and nearly unseen.   

[Cory Joe Stewart]

Thanks Dan, ROger and Lucky,

I am now looking over these products and how to use them.  I think while I have it all apart I will take the time to straighten up the trigger as a cheers to Don for helping. 

I will keep you fellas posted on how it goes. 

Regards,

Coryjoe

[JTR]

Coryjoe,
Another helpful way for stopping the crack is to drill a small hole through it, right at the very end of the crack.

You mention that it goes through the thin area of wood between the side plate inlet and the lock area, so if you can drill a hole that takes out the actual end of the crack, that will go along way toward stopping it from happening again. If need be, drill a bit from both sides, and meet in the middle.

Drill it, then glue it as the others have suggested.

John

[The other DWS]

Re: the use of "CA" (cyanoacrylate) adhesives.

there are a whole range of CA based adhesives each designed for specific purposes as well as varying brand names.  the popular dime-store versions ie CrazyGlue etc are the cheapest low end versions. and most are not impact resistant. new and better grades are starting to become available, some are better at bulk filling, some are modified to be more impact resistant and have a certain amount of flexibility though they do have a longer set/cure time.
 I was first introduced to the use of high grade CAs when I was working in museum administration and found it in regular use in the conservation departments of the major museums.  I even have seen it used in copious quantities to stabilize and solidify dry rotted areas (with considerable attention to the health and environmental hazards it can present if used in quantity).  Subsequently I found that the who do repair and restoration of high end collectable and antique archer bows use it as a main tool.  I have seen and shot fine collector bows that were total wrecks before restoration.
  I personally use pretty much the Loc-tite line, especially the very thin wicking penetrating grades in combination with careful clamping for wood cracks.  however it does penetrate and seal the wood which can present future problems with stains and dyes so it has to be employed with careful thought for future complications at finish time.

As one example:  On my current project I caused a small crack to start while inletting the breechplug/tang.  (The un-breechplugged barrel had already been professionally inlet as had the lock.)  Probably through inattention I got something a little crooked and the stock shoulder just above the lock and behind the breech started to split off.
 I removed the barrel and tang and used a very small drill to drill two angled holes just above the lock inlet through the about-to-split-off piece back into solid wood almost to the breechplug inlet.  then I cut two metal pins of the same diameter about 1/8" shorter than the depth of the holes I drilled and roughed them up a bit with fine sandpaper.
 I very carefully opened up the crack and using a very fine needled disposable hypodermic syringe injected the #420 into the crack and into the drilled holes then I tapped the pins in using a fine punch to seat them deeply.  I then tapped a slightly oversized whittled down splinter of the stock wood in to fill the holes to the surface and clipped them off at the surface, clamped it all tightly and carefully and let it set and cure for 24 hours.  the repair is almost totally invisible on the raw wood. Itds probably solider than the original wood and once stained and finished and flash darkened will never be visible.