Need powder buying advice

[Canute Rex]

I need to buy some powder, and I'm intending to do it up big and buy a 25 pound lot. And I'm overthinking it and not getting anywhere.

I have a 50 cal flintlock and a 69 cal matchlock. At some time in the near future I may be looking into a smaller bore matchlock, if I can find one (Any tips appreciated).

I have been shooting 1F Goex in the matchlock and 3F Scheutzen in the flinter, although for years I went back and forth between 2F and 3F Goex in it. Never could decide which granulation worked best. I'm using the Scheutzen because I won a pound of it in a contest. The matchlock gets uncomfortable with 2F so I'll stick with 1F there.

So I've been looking around online at Powder Inc. and other places and the price of Goex and Scheutzen are close enough that it doesn't matter to me. I'm not going to put out for Swiss at my level of competition. I don't know enough about Diamondback or Kik to take a flyer on those.

I'll also need some 4F for prime, but I'm wondering about the ratio between that and the larger stuff. I suppose at 5 grains per prime it would be between 12 and 20 to 1. I've still got a full pound on the shelf, so I suppose one more would hold me. Then again, I noticed on the Powder Inc site that they said they were out of Goex 4F for now. What would people recommend as a replacement?

So, Goex or Scheutzen? 2F or 3F for the 50? What for prime?

Thanks!

[Dphariss]

For your use its a tossup. Schuetzen may foul less.

Use what the 50 shoots best. I would use FFF.
If you reduce the loads in the matchlock you can probably use FF or FFF in it as well.
Fg make very poor velocity in firearms using a round ball.
Its best with long projectiles.

Dan

[Canute Rex]

Thanks Dan.

Like many people who have passed the 40 yard line, I have a not-so-sturdy right shoulder. It's short of a torn rotator cuff, but I still have to be careful. I'm only using 85 grains of F in the .69 as it is, essentially a squib load. Maybe the solution is just a smaller bore.

[Daryl]

There are a number of guys here with .50's. They all shoot 2f in them (as I would), except one, who uses 3F because he can get buy with a little less powder- he's needing to watch his powder use more closely than many shooters.  For me, the big gun has no business shooting anything but 2F - or - maybe 1f if a musket, which it is. To simplify, 2F would work well in both.

I would also buy a can of 4F. That will probably last well over a year, shooting a couple (or more) times a month.  If you get 3F instead, you can get buy and use it in a pinch in the .50.

That is my opinon.

[bgf]

I went through a similar process not long ago, and ended up with a lot of Graf's (=Schuetzen) 3F, which works well in my .50's (even the pistol) and should be good in the .40 I'm building although I may have to order powder again before that is an issue.  The Graf's is noticeably cleaner with softer fouling than Goex, but the lot I got is a little bit weaker than the Goex I had previously (it varies also between lots; the pound of Graf's I tested was peppier than the Goex I had at that time).  The place I prefer Goex is in the pan, as it seems to be less "soupy" in damp weather, but that is only an observation, not really a significant difference.  Neither one is so good or bad compared to the other that it will change your life -- although Swiss might if you've never tried it:)!  You can mix and match at Graf's, and probably other places, so either go with what you know entirely or hedge your bets with some new stuff to try -- they are all safe choices.  I bet that Swiss 4F is really fast for a prime!

[Daryl]

IIRC- Swiss 4F is a little faster than GOEX 4F, but Null B takes the flag every time over both.

[The other DWS]

who sells Null B by mail order?  I know it is sold at Friendship, but I never seen to be able to get there.

[roundball]

I need to buy some powder, and I'm intending to do it up big and buy a 25 pound lot. And I'm overthinking it and not getting anywhere.

As one reference, I've used Goex 3F main and 4F prime in every caliber rifle & smoothbore I've owned.
.40/.45/.50/.54/.58/.62cal rifles  and  .54/.56/.62cal smoothbores
Barrel lengths include 27", 28", 32", 38", 42"

Best case prices I ever found was buying directly from a Goex Distributor.
I mixed each case to always include 1 can of 4F.
Then mix cans of 3F (and/or 2F) as you see fit
Goex web site lists the distributor names/addresses/contact info.

If you're within reasonable driving distance of a Goex Distributor, you can avoid shipping/handling/HazMat fees all together.
Further, at a Goex Distributor counter you can buy it in a 25lb bulk bag inside a sturdy Goex box for an even lower price per pound...single granulation of course...but it’s so inexpensive if you mainly wanted 3F, get it bulk then just add a few cans of 2F/4F to your over the counter purchase.

[camerl2009]

i use 2f goex in my flinters and 4f goex in the pan(i cant get nothing but goex here in canada swiss is real hard to come by and if your local gunshop does not have it your out of luck) i mostly use 2f for everything buy my BPCR's witch i use 1f to fill the case

4f will last a long time ive had a can last about a year or so

[4ster]

who sells Null B by mail order?  I know it is sold at Friendship, but I never seen to be able to get there.

A couple of vendors on the Web, I have not ordered from either:
http://www.uppermotradingco.com/black_powder.html
http://www.powderinc.com/catalog/order.htm

I ordered some from an outfit in Montana that I thought was a good price and they allowed me to mix powders in the order so I was able to buy 1can of Null B with the order.  I think that was done over the phone and I can't find the link right now.  

Steve

[Daryl]

Further note- once we have enough empty cans, we usually get a 25 pound bag then decant the bag into the cans. It is cheaper, but for us, usually only $1.00 per pound.

[Canute Rex]

Thanks to all for the input.

I'm tending towards 12 and 12, 2F and 3F with a can of Null B to make it 25. Maybe by the time I burn through it all I can figure out which I like better in my 50.

I do sometimes get the impression that I'm having inconsistent velocity shooting 1F.

I don't really have much problem with fouling - I use tight and sloppy wet patches - so I'll pocket the 50 cents a can and get Goex.

I don't get the impression that there is a huge difference in either performance or consistency between Goex and Scheutzen. Or is there?

[Daryl]

I did notice that softly seating the ball on the powder, and firmly seating it was just over 100fps average lower velocity.  If there is one shot soft, one shot hard seated, it can run upwards of 150fps, especially with slow burning powder.

Too - something DP and I recorded suing chronographs, was more consistant shot to shot velocities using 2f, or ver 3F.  In every bore I tried it in, 3f gave higher shot to shot variations in speed.  In BP shooting, shot to shot consistancy shows a greater potential for accuracy.  I remember reading back in the 70's something that stuck with me.  "50% of your accuracy in shooting a muzzleloading rifle, is shot to shot consistancy." That means doing everything exacly the same, to the best of your ability.  That's something you can just about take to the bank. ('cept they won't give you anything for the info).

[Canute Rex]

Good points to consider, Daryl. Maybe my technique with the ramrod makes more difference than the name on the powder can.

As it is (and this is getting aside from powder) I seat the ball by gravity and sound. I have a brass ramrod for my 50. I ram down the ball as well as it will go with firm hand pressure. Then I lift the ramrod eight inches and drop it on the ball. First drop - thud. Second drop - clank - as the ball seats. I figure that gravity won't change on me.

So now I'm thinking 2F for consistency. I'm not likely to get a .40 or anything smaller.

[Daryl]

I have both 3f and 2F accuracy loads for my .40 & .45. They give idential accuracy and velocity - but - it takes 10gr. more 2f than 3F using the same ball and patch combination.

[Canute Rex]

Ok Daryl, now you are confusing me.

You saw more consistent velocities shot to shot with 2F than 3F, but you see no accuracy difference between 2F and 3F in your 40 and 45 rifles. But consistency, including consistent velocity, is 50% of your accuracy. B-b-b-but...

Or is it just that the greater inconsistency in velocity (with 3F) shows up on the chronograph but isn't enough to show up on the target?

[Daryl]

My accuracy testing was at 50 yards only.  At that range, both granulations showed the same accuracy. 

The closer consistancy shows greater accuracy "potential", as noted in my post (I thought I noted that).

Sometimes that potential shows on paper close in, sometimes not.  This also happens with modern firearms, say at 100 yards.  Close shot to shot velocities do not always show up as better accuracy at that close range, but usually does at longer ranges.  Rifles that possess greater drop, will show velocity variation effecting group size closer in than flat shooting rounds.  Our rifles fit the first criteria, of greater drop firearms.