Author Topic: patch lube  (Read 9418 times)

Offline little joe

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patch lube
« on: February 26, 2012, 06:13:56 PM »
Have any of you fellows tryed the water and water soluble oil mixture for patch lube and what were your results?

Offline Frizzen

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Re: patch lube
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2012, 06:29:44 PM »
Water soluble oil mixture for patch lube dominted  Friendship bench shooters for around 30
years. It was replaced by Teflon coated patching. A famous old custom barrel maker  once
said that if a barrel would not shoot accurate with a water soluble patch, then it would not
shoot with anything. It's a very excellcent patch lube. Use a 10 % oil to water mix for barrels
that are new and not real smooth yet and use a 5 % mix for a smooth barrel.
The Pistol Shooter

Offline Canute Rex

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Re: patch lube
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2012, 06:35:30 PM »
The only drawback to WSO lube is that you have to wipe between shots, wet and then dry.

Use the search function up at the top center of the page for "water soluble oil" and you'll get a raft of results.

Offline Don Getz

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Re: patch lube
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2012, 08:21:34 PM »
I used the Dutch Schultz method for a while in my Chunk Gun, as a matter of fact did my best shooting with it.  The thing
I didn't like about it was the fact that the patch was completely dry, had to pound it down the bore, as I got older this
was a lot of work.   Later on I went to Teflon, very consistent, and went down the barrel rather easy..........Don

Vomitus

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Re: patch lube
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2012, 08:37:30 PM »
Glad you asked lil Joe. I have a gallon of the stuff kicking around.
CanRex,why do you have to wipe between shots? Do you shoot a tight combination? (ball,patch, bore?)I'd try it if I didn't have to swab.

Offline Canute Rex

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Re: patch lube
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2012, 11:23:21 PM »
Leatherbelly, I use wet patches. I only know what I've seen and been told about dry lube. Everything I've heard and read, and what I've seen, is that with the dry lube technique you need to swab. The dry patch doesn't clean the bore like a wet patch.

I shoot a reasonably tight combo with wet lube and it works fine without swabbing.

The last guy I saw shooting dry (WSO) was kicking butt at the biathlon - generally 9 out of 9. Buuut, he had a special open top belt pouch just for cleaning patches and a range rod in a kind of sheath. He went through a bedsheet's worth of cloth to get through the course. Swab wet, swab dry, swab dry again, then load. His combo must have been tight because he broke his delrin range rod on the last shot while I was watching. Finished with the regular ramrod, but it rattled him and he missed. Seemed like too much trouble even for the results.


The other DWS

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Re: patch lube
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2012, 12:04:29 AM »
What kind of "teflon patching" are you talking about?

 the BPCR guys are absolute death on any kind of petroleum/plastic additives in their lubes claiming it create very difficult to remove fouling. I have heard of cast bullet shooters wrapping their slugs with plumbers teflon tape but none of the ASSRA castbullet shooters I know do so.  Most use a lanolin/beeswax+ mis of some sort.   

Offline walt53

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Re: patch lube
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2012, 05:11:32 AM »
Frizzen, I asume your using the water soluble oil and water wet but not dripping.  walt

Offline Frizzen

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Re: patch lube
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2012, 06:20:14 AM »
Yes, the patches are wet, but not dripping. More like a heavy damp. This  is what I use for
my pistol shooting. Pre-cut square wet. I use a ball .003 larger than bore and in timed fire
matches, I can load and shoot ten shots without wiping. 10th shot loads just as easly as the 1st.
The Pistol Shooter

Offline Dphariss

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Re: patch lube
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2012, 06:52:57 AM »
What kind of "teflon patching" are you talking about?

 the BPCR guys are absolute death on any kind of petroleum/plastic additives in their lubes claiming it create very difficult to remove fouling. I have heard of cast bullet shooters wrapping their slugs with plumbers teflon tape but none of the ASSRA castbullet shooters I know do so.  Most use a lanolin/beeswax+ mis of some sort.   

There are many different forms of petroleum. Some have no adverse effect on the powder fouling.
Most petroleum OILS are bad. But WS oil is modified to allow solubility.

The WS oil Schoultz method puts very little oil on the patch, I use about 7-1 water-oil and the patches are dry.
I have not problem loading them in either GM barrels or in my McLemore. They start harder but once started loading is not a problem since starting sizes the ball to the bore.

One way that petroleum can be a problem is leaving some fouling in the bore when cleaning, oiling it after cleaning, then "cooking" the petroleum soaked fouling by firing the gun again, not getting all this fouling out, usually at the breech, oiling it, firing etc. can result in a material much like asphaltic concrete building in the breech.
Cleaning the bore clean and wiping the oil from the bore before firing will work wonders in preventing such problems.
If the bore is clean there is no down side to using petroleum preservative oils.
The good news is that oiled bp fouling seldom causes corrosion.
Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Daryl

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Re: patch lube
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2012, 08:15:11 AM »
Consistancy when trying to wipe the bore between shots, was probably the reason my accuracy suffered when I experimented with it.  Shot to shot velocity strings had high standard deviations, compared to shooting wet and not swabbing or wiping.  I had SD's as low as 5fps max deviation in a 10 shot string. Those were loads that shot into 1" to 1 1/2" at 100 yards from my .58 Hawken - open sights. I figured that was probably about as good as I could shoot open sights and left it at that.

Like LB, Taylor, Neil, Len and everyone else we shoot with, we shoot wet and the last shot, whether it's only the 44th or coiuld be the 80th, loads as easily as the first and accuracy is consistant, right from the get-go.

Offline Don Steele

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Re: patch lube
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2012, 01:33:25 PM »
Are there any specific "water soluble oils" that work better than others..???
Any experience with Ballistol in this application..?
I've used Ballistol/water with success myself, but always in much higher oil concentrations...more like 50/50. Nothing dry about those patches. Now that I think of it...kinda messy actually... ;D
Look at the world with a smilin' eye and laugh at the devil as his train rolls by...(Alison Krauss)

The other DWS

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Re: patch lube
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2012, 02:58:12 PM »
bullet, and by extension it looks like, patch lubes, and chili recipes seem to bring out the extreme creativity in men.
Greases, fats, oils, sopping wet or dry and everything in between; what was historic, what works on the range and in competition, and what works for the hunting bag; it fair to make ones head spin and explode.

Do we have a basic primer on patches and lubes on the site here?

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: patch lube
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2012, 04:06:23 AM »
I will submit that patches and lubes that are historic were as diversified as those of ours today.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline doulos

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Re: patch lube
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2012, 07:23:35 AM »
Are there any specific "water soluble oils" that work better than others..???
Any experience with Ballistol in this application..?
I've used Ballistol/water with success myself, but always in much higher oil concentrations...more like 50/50. Nothing dry about those patches. Now that I think of it...kinda messy actually... ;D
Ive used and still use a spray bottle with diluted Ballistol  ( about 6-1 to 8-1)for range shooting.  I just dampen the patches with it. Not sopping wet ,but fairly damp. I can usually shoot a lot of shots without cleaning that way. But to tell you the truth I think patches dampened with plain water do just as well at the range.
 Ive tried the Schoultz method with ballistol and thought the patches were just too dry to shoot a long string without cleaning. Especially when using certain powders (Swiss FFG)
I'm going to try Daryl and Taylors sopping wet with that powder and see if it helps loading.
One thing I am certain about in 2 of my guns is that I definitely get a little better accuracy with a lighter lube. By this I mean one with less viscosity

Daryl

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Re: patch lube
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2012, 09:17:34 PM »
To simplify things and to have a 'warmer' than ice cold water - wet patch, Taylor shot an entire winter with his .40 Kuntz using neetsfoot oil only for a patch lube.  I'm pretty sure his load was with 67gr. of 3F GOEX powder, so it wasn't a poky load. He had no difficulty shooting the trail which could be anywhere from 45 shots on a quick day, to 80 shots on a 4 hour day, without every wiping the bore. He used, as normal, a thicker than .020" patch and a .395" ball - fairly wet with oil.

Many of us use a concoction of winter windshield washer fluid for trail walks in the winter, so the patches won't freeze, and in the summer just because it's convenient.  Blue Thunder windshield washer fluid is about the cheapest at $3.95 or $4.00 per gallon and doesn't have any special soaps or teflon in it like some do - it does have blue die.  I pour about 6 to 8 ounces of Neetsfoot oil or something else, like Murphy's (to help slow down the evapouration in the summer) into that gallon of washer fluid. I then give it a shake, and pour some into a smaller container - about a pint or quart size for convenience. Before putting it on my patches, I shake the bottle, then pour it onto the patches which are in a "sucrets tin" and let them soak up as much as possible - then gently squeeze out the excess back into the pint bottle. The patches are WET, but tipping the tin up on edge causes no dripping- in time, it probably would drip due to gravity. When the patched ball is squeezed in the muzzle with the stud on the starter knob, there will be a visible ring of moisture around the top circumference and after pushing down the load, you can see the bore is slighlty damp.

The reason I pour Neetsfoot oil into my WWWF, is because there are no chemicals in the oil and I can trust it not to hurt my bore. Some soaps have caustic chemicals in them, which I don't want in my bore - so far, what I am using, does not hurt my bores so I'm happy with them.  Taylor tried straight Ballistol as a rust preventative while at hunting camp. In 2 days sitting after oiling, his bore has rust in it. I do not trust it, however in all honesty, lots of guys do trust Ballistol. We don't.

Spit shoots just as accurately, BTW, or maybe even more accurately than any other concoction.  Some people cannot muster up the requisite amount of spit to shoot an 80 shot course of fire -therefore, they use prepared concoctions. They use prepared concoctions because they are handy, easy, not because they produce miraculous accuracy.

No wet solution, including water, Neetsfoot oil, Mink Oil, our WWWFluid mix or spit, causes the bore to require wiping before loading the next one - ever- as long as the ball and patch combination's measurement is from .002" to .008" larger than the groove to groove diameter. 

There is very little 'felt' difference when loading with different lubes, but some oils do feel easier, like the super slick ones.  The ability to load again without having to wipe, is not due only to the lube being used, it is due to the fit of the ball and thick enough patch which can carry enough lube to do it's job well.  A ptch .018" or thicker can hold enough lube, if the ball is large enough to make that thickness patch fit to the bottom of the grooves.

The lube is secondary to the fit combination and as far as I can see, is not there to actually lubricate anything, it is there to soften the fouling only.  Plain water also loads easily, so the slipperyness isn't really necessary.  The softened fouling will allow loading the next shot, without you having to wipe the bore.  If the ball and patch combination is too weak or too loose to wipe the bore clean as it's loaded, fouling will build up from shot to shot and the lube and patch cannot do it's job. Thus, after 1, 3 5 or wahtever shots made, the bore must be wiped as loading is getting more difficult the more shots are fired. Thus, the condition of the bore is changing therefore the rifle cannot deliver it's best accuracy due to the  changing environment within.

Yes- some lubes are slippery - like Hoppe's #9 Plus, LHV, and Shenendoah lube- to similar exent, Neetsfoot oil and Mink oil as well.  What I have found, is that the slippery lubes require more powder to get them to shoot with the same accuracy as a 'water' based lube that isn't slippery.  My .40 and .45 require another 10gr. of 3F powder to shoot as well and  20gr. of 2F to match previous water solution wet accuracy.  The slippery lubes usually do not shoot to the same point of impact as a non-slippery lube eitehr, so a hunting lube, which must be an oil or grease, may not and probably will not shoot to the same poi as a water based, target shooting lube. Re-sighting may be necessary. Hopefully, only the elevation is changed, however due to barrel vibrations, sometimes there is a windage element as well.

If you want nothing to change - then use Neetsfool oil or Track's Mink Oil for all your shooting.  If you test your loads, you will find a load that shoots well at 50 to 100yards with either Mink or Neetsfoot oil, is already what could be deemed as a hunting load. Thus, you will always be practising with your hunting load. It does not get any better than that, if hunting is a main function of your rifle or smoothbore ball shooting.

The other DWS

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Re: patch lube
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2012, 10:53:56 PM »
"slippery lubes require more powder to get them to shoot with the same accuracy as a 'water' based lube that isn't slippery."  Interesting!
  Slippery going down loading and still slippery coming out upon firing? Might not be generating enough pressure due to relative lack of friction compared to a more water lubed patch ???

Daryl

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Re: patch lube
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2012, 11:10:00 PM »
That's as I see it - the situation being similar to a barrel that's 'gone slick', in that it takes more powder to get it shooting properly again.

This has happened to Roger several times with his long-lived .45 barrel. Over 45,000 shots through it. They will slick up a bit, if you use them.  He uses spit - were he to have been using a slippery lube all along, like those mentioned, there might never have been a 'gone slick' situation as it would always have been 'slick'. Too- the 'wear' he experienced to make it 'slick' might never have happened or at least would have been postponed.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 11:12:42 PM by Daryl »

Offline walt53

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Re: patch lube
« Reply #18 on: February 29, 2012, 05:03:06 AM »
DARLY In using the MURPHY'Soap in your www do you or have you had any trouble with  brown gunk or any such thing using the MURPHY'S IN YOUR LUBE MIX.WALT

Daryl

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Re: patch lube
« Reply #19 on: February 29, 2012, 06:01:18 AM »
No- no borwn gunk- nor did Taylor, who still uses it. I suspect the absence of it, is due to no blowby, which would superheat the bore's surface if just momentarily, where the 'soap' is present. Without the blowby, there is no superheating, therefore no brown gunk.  Taylor has used it in his Bess, .40 Kuntz and the .50 Virginia - none have displayed any gunk.

I only used it briefly & stopped as I saw it was not providing any benefit. Plain spit or the WWWF by itself or with oil added, litterally shot the same.  Lubes I tried with a water base, did not give the same requirement as the super slick lubes, even though they feel quite slippery between the fingers.  I suspect under the pressure involved in the patched ball, the water based lube's lubricity deteriorates, where-as the slippery lubes maintain their slippery integrity.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: patch lube
« Reply #20 on: February 29, 2012, 06:14:57 AM »

 Ive used and still use a spray bottle with diluted Ballistol  ( about 6-1 to 8-1)for range shooting.  I just dampen the patches with it. Not sopping wet ,but fairly damp. I can usually shoot a lot of shots without cleaning that way. But to tell you the truth I think patches dampened with plain water do just as well at the range.
 Ive tried the Schoultz method with ballistol and thought the patches were just too dry to shoot a long string without cleaning. Especially when using certain powders (Swiss FFG)
I'm going to try Daryl and Taylors sopping wet with that powder and see if it helps loading.
One thing I am certain about in 2 of my guns is that I definitely get a little better accuracy with a lighter lube. By this I mean one with less viscosity

The Schoultz  method REQUIRES wiping between shots. I use a wet patch, not close to dripping though or wet enough to squeeze out water when its put in bore on a jag, each side once down and up. Dry patch each side down and up. Then its ready to load again.
The wet patches have to be the SAME dampness. A really wet one one time and a damp one the next will leave an inconsistent bore.
Its best to put 100 patches or more in a small wide mouth jar and wet them with water. Let them set, preferably an hour or more, then dump the excess water and then press the patches to remove more water. If they are still too wet then add a few dry ones to suck up the excess. Cap and invert to let the dry ones suck up water.
Using a plastic jar about 3" high I made enough patches to run over 100 rounds and they are very consistent.
But I am getting down to only having enough for another match or two.
I am experimenting with tallow, beef right now, and like it. Its time consuming to make. But will not rust a bore if done right, boiled 2-3 times in clean water to purify it. Soap makers add salt when making tallow DO NOT add salt for a patch lube. Very thin coat on one side is enough. I put it on the patches with a table knife and allow the "teeth" on the knife to leave tiny ridges of lube kinda like a floor adhesive trowel leaves but in miniature.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine