Author Topic: Broken frizzen spring  (Read 8613 times)

chuck-ia

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Broken frizzen spring
« on: February 20, 2012, 04:07:40 AM »
For your information. The frizzen spring broke on my late ketland lock today, continued to shoot with no spring, not so sure if the lock time wasn't faster without a spring. (hard to tell) chuck

Offline Frank

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Re: Broken frizzen spring
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2012, 04:14:30 AM »
I have heard that the only real purpose of the frizzen spring was to keep the frizzen closed. It would appear your shooting without one confirms this.

54Bucks

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Re: Broken frizzen spring
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2012, 04:42:13 AM »
 I think the frizzen spring serves a much more important part than just keeping the frizzen closed. Such as balancing and resisting the released mainspring/tumbler/cock. Without one that mainspring is adding a lot of additional stress to other lock parts.

blunderbuss

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Re: Broken frizzen spring
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2012, 06:05:53 PM »


  I agree it only needs to hold the frizzen closed very slight pressure

Al Lapp

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Re: Broken frizzen spring
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2012, 06:11:08 PM »
I have to agree with 54bucks. I wouldn't shoot my gun that way,unless having to clear it. I think there would be a lot less resistance to slow the hammer before it bottomed out resulting in damaged parts. Just my 2 cents worth.  Al

Daryl

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Re: Broken frizzen spring
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2012, 06:15:21 PM »
My Dickert lock also fired perfectly without the 'feather' spring, but the frizzen does take a beating - banging back and forth with no spring to arrest it's travel.  That's something to consider.

blunderbuss

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Re: Broken frizzen spring
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2012, 06:17:03 PM »


  Sure it needs a spring but a very soft one

chuck-ia

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Re: Broken frizzen spring
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2012, 09:40:15 PM »
The lock will go back to Chambers this week. Was hoping he would just send a new spring, but he wants the lock back to put a spring in. I just shot around 6 times with the spring broken, so hopefully no damage to the lock. Just thought it was interesting, and nice to know if out hunting or whatever and the spring breaks the gun will still work. thanks, chuck

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Broken frizzen spring
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2012, 10:40:25 PM »
You might be able to get away with it on  some locks, but don't do it with a L & R Ashmore lock.  The unthreaded part of the screw that retains the frizzen is quite thin on this lock, and though it is hardened and tempered, it will bend out of alignment with repeated firing without the spring.  Ask me how I know this!!  I have Chamber's Late Ketland lock on my .40 cal Kuntz rifle, and I have problems with the frizzen rebounding and breaking my flint.  I think I have to INCREASE the feather spring's tension to stop this phenomenon.  But I'd love to hear from others who have overcome the problem.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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robert

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Re: Broken frizzen spring
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2012, 03:24:53 AM »
Its true. The spring has to be stiff enough not to rebound or damage will resort!

The other DWS

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Re: Broken frizzen spring
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2012, 04:46:24 AM »
the springs have to be balanced either one too strong or too light relative to the other an result in misfires or no fires, and damage to the lock on both sides of the plate. weak or broken frizzens are notorious for beating the snot out of and breaking flints  in half.

Offline bgf

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Re: Broken frizzen spring
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2012, 05:18:37 AM »
You might be able to get away with it on  some locks, but don't do it with a L & R Ashmore lock.  The unthreaded part of the screw that retains the frizzen is quite thin on this lock, and though it is hardened and tempered, it will bend out of alignment with repeated firing without the spring.  Ask me how I know this!!  I have Chamber's Late Ketland lock on my .40 cal Kuntz rifle, and I have problems with the frizzen rebounding and breaking my flint.  I think I have to INCREASE the feather spring's tension to stop this phenomenon.  But I'd love to hear from others who have overcome the problem.

Taylor,
My Durs Egg has a very light frizzen spring, and I was seeing an occasional but irritating flint broken on the first strike.  After testing other frizzen springs which were all a lot stiffer, my first inclination was to re-bend the frizzen spring, but then I started wondering why does it only break on the first strike, but if the flint didn't break it would go quite a while (dozens of shot) with no attention and not break.  All I did was start making sure the flint was installed a little farther back from frizzen (initially a guess) and I really haven't had any problem with broken flints since then and the flints last as long or longer.  That was with bevel down (which my lock prefers) for what it matters. 

I'd be interested to hear what fixes yours, esp. if you try changing the frizzen spring -- when I researched it and asked around, I found roughly 50% for and 50% against :).  I honestly don't know that what I did was "the right answer", but it works for the forseeable future.  I think it has to do with how soon and how hard the frizzen starts going back as to whether it rebounds and breaks flints as much or more than the stiffness of the frizzen spring.  Probably not much help, but there it is.

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: Broken frizzen spring
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2012, 06:32:34 AM »
This is just one guy's observation. I checked a batch of locks in the basement and noticed that locks load the frizzen spring after they touch the springs opening is completed. This may be easiest to see with a roller frizzen like a Late Ketland.  If you pull the top of the frizzen open, you can see it depress the spring. I suspect that most do this but to varying degrees.  Some locks land on the spring closer to the springs bend. It would be harder to load the spring here than if the spring was contacted farther from the bend. The farther forward the more leverage the frizzen toe can exert.

The length of the Frizzen's toes then, has an effect on how much the spring loads when the frizzen comes to rest. (I think.). In the high speed videos you can see some springs really load - others not so much.  I figure the more a spring loads, the more likely it is to have a strong rebound.  There is much to learn here.

I'm afraid I'm not saying this well.

regards,
Pletch
« Last Edit: February 21, 2012, 06:38:06 AM by Pletch »
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

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Online Bob Roller

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Re: Broken frizzen spring
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2012, 03:05:03 PM »
The Chambers late Ketland has a roller on the frizzen spring.The Twigg has the roller on the frizzen and a good size ramp or cam to act as a brake and prevent the back lash and broken flints. I finished a Chambers late Ketland yesterday using the external parts and my own linked mechanism with 3 screw bridle.It is fast and no rebound apparent with the frizzen. I prefer the roller on the frizzen or none at all like my small Ketland that uses a ramp with a peak to help open the frizzen and prevent broken flints.

Bob Roller

chuck-ia

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Re: Broken frizzen spring
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2012, 04:58:53 PM »
My lock is more apt to break a new 3/4by7/8" flint the first couple strikes, I have been using used 3/4 by 7/8" flints from my large siler locks which may have 20 - 30  shots on them, usually go another 20 to 30 in the late ketland. I really don't know if my frizzen is rebounding. On Chambers site this lock calls for a 5/8" flint, I might get 15 shots from this flint till it is wore down too much, and won't open the frizzen, which usually results in slow ignition. Over all I like this lock, very reliable and seem fast. chuck

roundball

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Re: Broken frizzen spring
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2012, 05:20:04 PM »

In the high speed videos you can see some springs really load - others not so much.  I figure the more a spring loads, the more likely it is to have a strong rebound.  There is much to learn here.


Not an engineer, but I always thought a stronger spring would minimize chances of rebound.
Given that the contact point of the Frizzen on the spring passes a point in its travel that is somewhat like a cam effect, after passing that point of peak spring resistance, it would be difficult for it to bounce back past it...I may be wrong

Daryl

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Re: Broken frizzen spring
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2012, 07:36:02 PM »
Seems to me - (memory work) that every high speed sequence or locks firing that Rich photographed, showed a rebounding frizzen. That was with 5 or 6 locks, seems to me.

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: Broken frizzen spring
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2012, 12:54:12 AM »
So far we're over 80 locks videoed, but some have been done more than once in different situations, and powder grain sizes.  Some locks rebound once, some are back and forth 3-5 times before coming to rest.  We've seen them come back and touch the flint, top jar, or even the top jaw screw.  Most would go unnoticed except for the video.  The only lock that did not rebound was one in which David Price had his thumb under tha frizzen toe. His thumb dampened the frizzen.  I think it hurt, but David did not give it away if it did.

The most unusual thing that shows up in high speed video is that we can document the necks of most cocks flex for maybe 2 or 3 frames before "returning to battery".  We'd never know this without the video.

Regards,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

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Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

roundball

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Re: Broken frizzen spring
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2012, 01:33:19 AM »
That's interesting...and see is believing of course...you continue to make a terrific contribution to all of us in the ML fraternity by sharing your test results

The other DWS

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Re: Broken frizzen spring
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2012, 02:15:22 AM »
there really is some pretty awesomely complex metallurgy and tempering in our flintlocks that most of us newer guys are just not aware of.  First, getting the frizzen hard enough to spark well  but not so hard it shatters with all those impacts.
  Then having to have the hammer neck tough enough to do that flex and still keep its shape and not get bent under repeated impacts yet not so rigid that it too snaps.  I know the flintlock evolved from the simple hooked latch of early crossbows but the process never ceases to amaze me

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Broken frizzen spring
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2012, 01:43:19 AM »
You might be able to get away with it on  some locks, but don't do it with a L & R Ashmore lock.  The unthreaded part of the screw that retains the frizzen is quite thin on this lock, and though it is hardened and tempered, it will bend out of alignment with repeated firing without the spring.  Ask me how I know this!!  I have Chamber's Late Ketland lock on my .40 cal Kuntz rifle, and I have problems with the frizzen rebounding and breaking my flint.  I think I have to INCREASE the feather spring's tension to stop this phenomenon.  But I'd love to hear from others who have overcome the problem.

Taylor,
My Durs Egg has a very light frizzen spring, and I was seeing an occasional but irritating flint broken on the first strike.  After testing other frizzen springs which were all a lot stiffer, my first inclination was to re-bend the frizzen spring, but then I started wondering why does it only break on the first strike, but if the flint didn't break it would go quite a while (dozens of shot) with no attention and not break.  All I did was start making sure the flint was installed a little farther back from frizzen (initially a guess) and I really haven't had any problem with broken flints since then and the flints last as long or longer.  That was with bevel down (which my lock prefers) for what it matters. 

I'd be interested to hear what fixes yours, esp. if you try changing the frizzen spring -- when I researched it and asked around, I found roughly 50% for and 50% against :).  I honestly don't know that what I did was "the right answer", but it works for the forseeable future.  I think it has to do with how soon and how hard the frizzen starts going back as to whether it rebounds and breaks flints as much or more than the stiffness of the frizzen spring.  Probably not much help, but there it is.
Shot my Durs Egg for half a day after she broke.  Replaced it later and moved on down the pike.

Offline Belleville

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Re: Broken frizzen spring
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2012, 02:58:40 AM »
This is in no way meant to start a hostle discussion as I had also heard over the years that the frizzen spring need not be strong or really not necessary other than to hold the frizzen shut. That is until I discovered orig. French locks which have strong springs and huge showers of sparks. Ever since when I encounter a lock with a weak spring both frizzen and main, I replace them. The results are better ignition. A stronger frizzen spring will also resist rebound.

Note that not all new springs are stronger than the weaker ones I was trying to replace. You sort of have to sort thru and try different ones when dealing with cast springs.

Just my life time experiences of 50+ years working with M/L's.

Doc S.

Daryl

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Re: Broken frizzen spring
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2012, 03:46:54 AM »
I understand balance between the springs is supposed to be much more important than outright stiffenss of either. 

The other DWS

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Re: Broken frizzen spring
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2012, 06:06:58 PM »
Balance of springs, quality and angle of flint, Proper flint impact point for a given frizzen mass & geometry, proper metallurgy of the frizzen face all factor in a proper functioning lock.
Springs do need to be balanced and this thread and the other ones on broken flints and rebounding frizzens seem to all be evidence of a need fro better understanding of that balance

  One thing that just occurred to me is that when looking at originals we have to factor in the different grades of arms that have survived.
 When I was reenacting and in the museum business I had had the privilege of shooting a few originals in the past when I had much less experience.  One thing I recall is that all of the 'besses and charlevilles had very heavy mainsprings and frizzens to match.  Everything was overbuilt--big heavy everything.  but it was just exactly what you would expect for a military musket that had to take a likk'n and keep on tikk'n.  a well matched heavy spring set would help compensate for problems with a less than sharp flint or a wet and fouled frizzen. Then too in the military context frequent flint discards and changes were a matter of course. 

 The original trade guns were pretty much a match, though scaled down in size.  I never shot any original strictly civilian long arms. but I'd hazard that they were not so overbuilt.  I got to shoot a few pistols that belonged to a collector friend and the military pistols while smaller and lighter then the muskets of course still had very strong but balanced springs. Civilian pistols had much lighter, but perfectly balanced springs.

 One of the reenactors I hung out with was as guy who was a member of the USA international ML team who shot on the musket team.  The team muskets had both springs ground way down in terms of pounds and were much much easier to shoot accurately. you could practically flick the frizzen over with your fingertip.  but they sparked perfectly every time. The springs were balanced to perfection, hammer necks had been adjusted for optimum angle, flints were carefully selected.   Jim said that it was hard enough to shoot a musket accurately and all that heavy iron crashing around offline to the bore made follow through even more difficult.  Just tuning the lock and lightening the springs, and keeping them properly balanced, made a world of difference in their team scores.   It was all the difference between a recruits training rifle and a top military match or sniper rifle.

My point is that really heavy springs are not needed for civilian arms, though they might be for military ones, but that heavy springs or light; properly balanced locks will shoot reliable and that lighter ones might be able to be shot more accurately.  I try to lighten springs on my few flintlocks the way Jim showed me,  I've never had a broken off flint or a broken spring   JMHO of course