long rifles at Kings Mtn

[G-Man]

Much like the Tileston rife, the Sheets rifle that was featured in the article also has perfectly shaped and filed iron mounts that are virtually identical in form, finish and decoration to cast brass mounts.  So there were American smiths certainly capable of such work then - just as there are today.

Guy

[rich pierce]

Dang, I thought our contemporary fellas were better blacksmiths  .  Spectaular work being done now and apparently then.  The fine work on the Tileston rifle etc makes me wonder if the more simple iron mounts on guns such as the Old Holston rifle were not inspired by fine contemporary pieces mounted in iron.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Something of interest:  I was looking it over with Chris Laubach and Wallace in one of the hotel rooms, and Wallace asked me, "what do you think that is?" while indicating some black stuff on the inside of the triggerguard grip rail.  My knee-jerk response was, "gunk."  Wallace thought it was remnants of lampblack and oil, the 'blacking' that he thinks was applied to a bunch of the Southern iron mounted guns (hence the now-popular term "Southern black rifle").  Now, personally, I have no idea if it was applied paint/protection for the iron or if it was indeed just gunk.  There wasn;t any of it left anywhere else that I could see, although the inside of the grip rail is a protected area (albeit one which also does easily acquire 'gunk' over the years).  I don't know if a lab test could really settle the issue, because after years of care one would *expect* to find remnants of oil there.  But something to think about. 

[Ian Pratt]

  Rich - a point of interest regarding possible "inspiration" for the style of mounts on the Holston rifle - The rifle is thought to have been made roughly around the time of the Revolution, and many details on the gun would seem to represent close ties to German rifles of the time, some features perhaps earlier. But I think that the guard with it's "open grip rail" may tell us even more; on the surface it's would be easy to automatically place it with German work of the time period, but to me the form of it bears a more direct resemblance to a style of guard which I have seen on several much earlier guns - snaphaunce / wheellock / even matchlock guns, all of which were represented on this continent previous to the Holston rifle's assumed time of manufacture.
  Not suggesting that I believe the rifle to be earlier than attributed, not at all, just considering possibilities. It's a simple gun, but like many of them it brings up a multitude of unanswered questions.

[rich pierce]

Quite interesting to think about the influences on the earliest makers.  Undoubtedly there were guns around that were quite old at the time that could have been important influences.  I think the "bones" of the Old Holston gun are quite good, suggesting an experienced hand in the stocking.  When and why locally forged iron mounts began to appear is of great interest to me, but it is clear that in some regions it became a preferred style and perhaps a means of showing one's skill, as opposed to focusing on carving and engraving.

[mbriggs]

There was a small book put out by the State of Tennessee a number of years ago of weapons with a history of being used at the battle of Kings Mountain. I think the title is "The Sword of the Lord and Gideon".  I purchased it at the National Park Service book store at Guilford Courthouse Battlefield.

I am not sure were my copy is today, but the book was pretty interesting.  You might be able to find one on Amazon.

Michael

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

You might find this of interest... related but not about a gun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Doak

[Dphariss]

The phrase that Draper uses is "Deckhard" not Dickert so your guess is as good as mine as to who he really meant.

Deckard, Dickert and Dickard are all seen in the genealogy of the Dickert family. In the 18th and early 19th century family names were quite often spelled differently even within the same family groups. I know of at least 7 common spellings for my family name during that time period.
Dennis

Like you there are probably 7-10 ways to spell my name as well and they are all out there...
Spelling was pretty optional and people would spell a word or name the way they thought it sounded. Look though the Journals of Lewis & Clark.  Neither of these officers were illiterate but look a the spelling.
People would sometimes change the spelling of their name to break with their family. etc etc.
OR someone who taught them how the write their name spelled it the way THEY thought it sounded.

Dan

[The other DWS]

Rite   

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Kewl!

[Dphariss]

Probably sticking my head in the lions mouth....
I feel compelled to comment on the 16 bore smooth rifle.
I own a 16 bore rifle, it weighs 10 pounds. To get USEFUL trajectories to 100 yards or so we need 110- 120 gr of powder. This is with modern powder, the poorer powder often found on the frontier would have required a greater weight of powder. 110 is 25% of ball weight. 140 is only about 33% of ball weight.
It takes 140 to get 1600 fps from my 30" barreled rifle. 1600 is the break point for looping vs fairly flat trajectories. If only shot at 50 yards less powder can be used. For shooting people this can be extended since a sanding man is very deep vertically so from the stand point of trajectory shooting men can tolerate a lower velocity.
Recoil is a serious factor, with the English buttstock design my rifle does not inflict any pain, but its hard on a persons neck as the video shows. In stop motion its even more impressive.
If shot from the arm, as a curved buttplate requires its going to "leave a mark" even with a relatively light charge.
I would like to see some experimental "archaeologist" type copy this gun as exactly as possible then shoot it.
With the buttstock design, the "buttplate" design etc. I suspect it will not be a lot of fun, its eminently impractical in this bore size as stocked.
I hate to dispute the history but observation tells me its stocked like a 1820-40 Squirrel Rifle.
Anyone who thinks this is seriously in error needs to make a copy and shoot it.
The barrel could easily have been used at Kings Mtn. The stock? It seems out of place.
But I was not at Kings Mtn.
Dan