Author Topic: Chip out problem with wood  (Read 5611 times)

Bernard

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Chip out problem with wood
« on: February 24, 2012, 07:58:20 AM »
Trying to carve a stock I find that the wood lifts out of the curl too easily and raised portions chip off easily.
Is there anything I can do to solidify the wood or make it more resistant to chip out? I've considered just starting over but that seems a bit extreme. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Chip out problem with wood
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2012, 08:48:22 AM »
Trying to carve a stock I find that the wood lifts out of the curl too easily and raised portions chip off easily.
Is there anything I can do to solidify the wood or make it more resistant to chip out? I've considered just starting over but that seems a bit extreme. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Do you have HARD maple?
I have a piece of plank sawn "hard maple" that has been a nightmare. Makes me wonder if a piece of red was slipped in on me. In random places it the wood is not very sound and flakes and chips and pulls out far too easy. I finally gave up on any more tuning up or sculpting (too scary with this wood) and stained it. Will blush and oil in the AM.
It happens but ordering from someone who MAKES guns like Dixon has worked better for me than some other places. I ordered a 4 stocks and had a heck of a time getting the supplier to agree to Hard Maple, his wanting to ship me Red instead and frankly he very well may have in this case. if the next one carves like this one I will cross them off my list. The other two went to friends.
But wood can be notoriously fickle..... So it may be hard that is sub standard...
Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

mjm46@bellsouth.net

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Re: Chip out problem with wood
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2012, 02:35:56 PM »
Do as much of your chisel work as possible across the grain, and work with files and rasps or scrapers for everything else. And keep a bottle of glue handy. ;D

The other DWS

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Re: Chip out problem with wood
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2012, 03:48:22 PM »
what kind of glue will hold a small chip, with out bleeding in and sealing the grain against later stain and finish treatments?

Offline smallpatch

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Re: Chip out problem with wood
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2012, 04:52:25 PM »
bernard,
I feel your pain.  The Lehigh I just finished was the same way.  Very curly figured wood is sometimes very brittle, causing the problem we're having.

Keep you tools RAZOR SHARP, cut angular across the grain, don't pry small pieces out. Good luck.... sometimes Mother Nature wins.
No more red maple for me!!
In His grip,

Dane

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Chip out problem with wood
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2012, 05:27:22 PM »
what kind of glue will hold a small chip, with out bleeding in and sealing the grain against later stain and finish treatments?

Elmers Carpenter Glue or Titebond.
The "yellow" stuff.
Its never given me a reason to cuss it.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Captchee

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Re: Chip out problem with wood
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2012, 05:41:53 PM »
  A couple things .
First Sharp tools are a must . No exceptions
   Finish oils can help  stabilize the wood  .  The problem however is that the oils must be able to  allow a stain to penetrate, if you plan on staining .
 When in  carving or say checkering a piece of walnut or  Bola , ill  use a diluted stock sealer prior to starting the checkering or carving . As I work down   ill seal again . Let that dry and then continue cutting 

Also know that all woods  regardless of how the are cut , have an end grain . You have to carve with or across the grain . If you tool is dull  and you  try and cut into the grain , the tool can dive  and you get chips .
 So you have to learn  to read the wood by the feel of how you tool is cutting. Then attack the wood from a different angle 

Offline PIKELAKE

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Re: Chip out problem with wood
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2012, 06:26:09 PM »
I am having the same problem with a piece of cherry. It is a nice piece of wood for the most part but it sure is a pain. I'm using skew chisels and it is really slow goin. Slicing this way, then that way, you have to have a good sense of humor. Moisened the tough areas with H2O  and that helps a little. It aint easy........JZ
JOHN ZUREKI

The other DWS

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Re: Chip out problem with wood
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2012, 10:37:56 PM »
I keep a real hard almost agate-like hard arkansas stone or one of those fine white ceramic ones on my workbench and I am constantly "touching up" the edge on my chisels usually a quick light swipe to burnish the edge,  like a butcher uses his steel.  dull cutting tools are a danger to the job and to the worker

Offline EC121

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Re: Chip out problem with wood
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2012, 11:12:39 PM »
I built a cherry shotgun stock.  It hard hard and soft spots that would make it really interesting to inlet things.  Sharp tools and go slow.  Use a lot of stop cuts.
Brice Stultz

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Chip out problem with wood
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2012, 11:47:09 PM »
Not only does cherry require sharp tools, I find that I can not inlet things as tightly as I do in Maple. If you do be careful that you do not flake off chips when removing the the piece for further work! Ask me how I know, and know and know (looks like I would learn)!
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Bernard

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Re: Chip out problem with wood
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2012, 05:18:30 AM »
Captchee;
What type of sealer do you use and does it interfere with staining. I try to keep tools sharp. This isn't the first stock I've done raised carving on but it is the most difficult wood I've encountered. I tried diluting some shellac with alcohol. It seems to harden the surface but the chip-outs still occur. I was hoping there might be some product that would soak in and solidify the wood a bit.

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Chip out problem with wood
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2012, 05:29:19 PM »
Some wood is obviously more difficult to work than others.  With care it can all be worked though.  Personally I wouldn't suggest using sealer etc. on the wood prior to carving.  Some woods require more care and to slow down when carving etc. but it can be done. 
 
Not too long ago, I only wanted to work super hard sugar maple, but have found that carving softer red maple is no problem either.  I've not encountered any maple that can't be carved even with decent detail.  Adapt your process to the wood.

With that said, I have worked some sugar maple recently that wanted flake out very easily as well.  I used it on a heavily carved rifle and it all worked out in the end, but a lot of care was required.  This came from one of the major suppliers.  About the same time I got this blank I heard that his hard maple was being dried in a vacuum kiln.  Not sure if this is related, but I am a little skeptical.  It could be that I just had some miserable wood, and is unrelated though. 

Jim

Offline Captchee

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Re: Chip out problem with wood
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2012, 06:37:36 PM »
 Well , it depends on what im working on .
 Most time I use boiled linseed  diluted with denatured alcohol. Stains will go through as Linseed is only about 10% impervious . You will get a reduction in color  so its best to try a test  piece first
 I  do not use  oils prior to using fortis   though  I have been told  by at least 1 other builder that he does ????? Again , I don’t
 Like you have found though . These oils will  not absorb very deep , you will cut through them . So you have to keep applying .
  To give you some idea . Here is a flame  figured English walnut stock im currently working on . Over all the stock is  hard  . But its not as hard as burled figure.
I new that prior to starting the carving  and since the requested carving was going to be VERY heavy relief , I new I needed to be very careful. AS you can see  the grain is   rather open . So I used that to my benefit  as BL will then  penetrate  better . Thus helping reduce  issues
 So I mixed up  some diluted BL .   Once I had the pattern outlined  I used a small brush to paint in  the BL  to the area . Started my carving  . Once I notice that I was feeling issues  wanting to happen , I stopped carving . Applied another  heavy coat  and let that dry  before continuing .
 This photo is after  5 such coats applied only to the carving area  .
 Still a lot more work to do  im only alittle over 1/2 way done with  leveling the back ground , cleaning up the edges and truing the relief  .
 But in the end ill have clean sharp carving .
 then ill apply a coat of  Tung  which will go deep into the walnut , pop the figure  and help protect the edges of the carving .





 The deeper penetrating oils like Tung , are  more  impervious .   While they stabilize better , they don’t take a stain well . As such I use  Tung on stocks like Walnut  which I don’t stain .

 DuPont also used to market a wood hardener that  while not marketed as such ,  would take a stain .
 But I  have not used that for many , many years and have heard that  this is no longer true

  In the end , some woods  , even  piece within a good species , are just not  suitable for  good clean carving. As was also mentioned , you can run into softer areas even in a good hard stock .

 So  know that there are no fix alls  that will make a soft wood hard . All you can do is  apply something that will reduce those issues as much as possible .
The rest is up to you , your tools and sometimes just accepting  that you must “adjust your fire” so to say  .

  i see Jim posted  while i was .
I cant disagree with him . There simply is no substitute for  going slow and careful.
 That being said . When I know there may be  potential for an issue , Im not afraid to use any and every tool  in my arsenal  to reduce that potential.
 If you notice in the photo I posted  there are small chisels I have mad as well as very fine  toothed  needle files laying on my bench . All those are  part of what I use to carve and shape .  
Where one tool  like say my large gouge , wont work properly either do to being over sized or the wood to thin in the sculpting . I switch to another .
 Let the wood  tell you what it need . don’t try an tell the wood  what you will do with it . IMO  doing the last is a recipe for disaster  
« Last Edit: February 25, 2012, 07:00:17 PM by Captchee »

Bernard

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Re: Chip out problem with wood
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2012, 07:37:24 AM »
Thanks for the help everyone. Your comments have given me the courage to continue working with the pice of wood I have. Slow going but it seems to be coming along. Nice carving Captchee. I'll try to post some  pics when I get a bit further along with my project.