Unmarked Northampton? Engraving evokes Fordney.ID help, please. Pictures added

[eddillon]

The engraving is looking more and more like Fordney

Now comes the task of ID for this beauty.  One pretty patchbox!

Nice finial

Look what is inside.  It is original to the ramrod.

Toeplate.

Lockplate

Lock maker

Sideplate

Entry thimble

Cheekpiecewith silver inlay

Inlay on top of wrist.  AL or AS?

Muzzle cap

Rear sight

Overall

Since it has a front and rear sight, i assume that it was/is a rifle.  Appears to have an approximate bore of .50.  Seems smooth.  perhaps a smaller caliber rifle "freshed " or reamed?  I haven't worked up the courage to see if there are any marks in the barrel channel or on the botton of the barrel.  Help ID please.
Overall length is 56 1/2".  Barrel is 40".  Weighs 6lbs. 8oz.  Weight and LOPof 12 1/2" makes me think boy or lady size. BTW, finally removed the barrel and lock.  No markings on back of the lock, on the barrel or in the barrel channel.

[eddillon]

Arrived today!  Took 30 minutes to unpack!

[Hurricane ( of Virginia)]

Well worth waiting for. You have a fine gun.
Hurricane

[eddillon]

Appreciate the comment, Hurricane.  Any ideas where from and by whom?

[Tom Currie]

Ed, Congrats on your aquisition of a really nice interesting rifle. I suspect that from the lack of replies that many of us are a bit stumped. I am no expert but being an early percussion period gun with a patchbox that doesnt fit a standard type Lehigh pattern ( or elsewhere ) is not helping us that aren't more knowledable. The seperated patchbox side panels are more often associated with later Lancaster work by Fordney among others but I suspect you know that already.

What I can add is that I really like the " shaded leaf " engraving design used through out gun. Evident even on the patchbox near the finail screws by the hinge. It's adds a bit of a folksy touch to your gun.  I suspect if someone has seen this motif elsewhere it may be your best clue as to a maker.

[eddillon]

I have been studying the Fordneys in the Kaufman, Dillin and Kindig books.  There are many similarities in those pointed patterns that like curved triangles with series of curved parallel lines. Would be honored if it were a Fordney.
 

[eddillon]

Here are a few more photos that may help in IDing this petit rifle.  The wood was definitely finished during the "red finish era.  Also note the transition from flat to round on the bottom of the stock.

Toeplate with lid release.

Closeup of parallel curved line engraving in toeplate.

Same motif on patchbox.

Closeup of muzzlecap with iron pins showing.

Iron tip of ramrod with worm that attaches to it.

Attached.

 

[eddillon]

Is there anyone out there who finds the style, patchbox and engraving like any other gun they have seen?  I don't believe that this is a rifle that should stump the good folks who post on this forum.  Stumps me but. I am new to this facet of collecting.  Looking forward to seeing some opinions. 

[mr. no gold]

Great rifle with not a lot about it to tell us who made it. There is much about the gun that is unusual. You have mentioned the engraving, and you are right on with it. I don't believe that I have seen this hand with the deep cuts and patterns used by the maker, before. What a fine style! No hint though in that as to who he was unless someone comes forward who has a similar piece. Another unusual feature is the comb which appears to be quite long, as it comes just short of the end of the barrel tang. Most times, the comb terminates at the rear of the triggerguard; whereas this one goes well beyond. Although it has the widely spaced sidepates, it doesn't say Fordney in a loud voice. Other schools used that style as well. I can't even venture a wild guess on this. So, maybe it's time to dig out some of the books and look around to see what comes close. Thank you for showing it around to all of us. It's very pretty and fun to look at. If you find out more. please let us know.
Dick

[eddillon]

Thanks for the reply, Dick.  I have poured through H. Kauffman, C. Kaufman, Kindig, Dillin and Sawyer.  The closest similarities of engraving style, that I could find, are the works of both M. & F. Fordney.  I have spent hours searching the ALR virtual museum.  Can you suggest any other sources?
I think that the reason for the long comb is really a short wrist.  It is a very small gun.  Only 56" long.  LOP is 12".  Weight is 6.5 lbs.  The triggerguard is 7.25" from the tip of the front tang to the tip of the rear tang. The guard opening measures 1.720" front to rear on the inside of the bow. The swamped barrel measures .835" at the breach, .750" at the waist and .820" at the muzzle.  The lock (J. Cooper) is 4.70" long and .900" high.  Patchbox is 6.560" long and is 2.450" wide where it meets the buttplate.  Wrist is 1.070" wide and is 1.250" high. The bore measures .440".  I guess that this is a long winded way of saying this is a very petite rifle.  It was first acquired by a family that settled in the Easton, PA area in 1738.  It has been passed down through the original owners family til this year when I acquired through a dealer.  I have the provenance and would share it privatel,y if the family allows me to.    

[mr. no gold]

Ed, you might look through the Whisker series of books while at it. There is something slightly familiar about the style of engraving that nags from way down inside. He didn't do a book on the upper schools, but in his "Behold the Long Rifle" set, he shows some pieces made up in that area.Something may show up there. As it stands, the gun certainly does look like an eastern PA rifle and it did come from Easton.
Dick

[eddillon]

Thanks, Dick.  Wish I had Whisker's books.  The only one I have deals with pistols.
Strong Northampton influence to that buttstock!

[JTR]

Ed,
Check out Henry Carlisle, Shippensburg. Here's a link for the one in the library.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=16558.0

The engraving looks at least a bit similar, although I doubt that Carlisle is your guy.

John

[eddillon]

Thanks for the input, John.  I see the similarities in the engraving, the shape of the lockplate and sideplate molding and also the nose of the comb extending well up the wrist.
Ed

[eddillon]

Yesterday the patchbox lid failed to open when the toeplate button was pushed.  This forced me to remove the buttplate to solve the problem.  I was expecting that the archetecture of the plate was that the top part along the comb line was fitted on the wood.  Much to my surprise, the top was inlet into the wood.  Ahah!!  More Northampton proof or am I barking up the wrong architecture tree?

[Eric Kettenburg]

Most buttplates of that style (heavier cast comb extension) and period were inlet in that manner - it's not a regional characteristic.

[eddillon]

  My error.  Thought most were inletted in  a manner that the bottom edge of the extension rested on a ledge and not inletted down into the wood.

[Buck]

The Patch box finial looks like a Pineapple, maybe Philly? Nice rifle.
Buck

[Eric Kettenburg]

Well maybe I shouldn;t say "most" but I sure have seen a whole lot done that way.  Some were done flat too, as you mention, but in retrospect, when inlet as pictured here, it's actually easier to ensure a good fit and a fit that doesn't allow the buttplate to slide around and/or become misaligned.

[fm tim]

Buchele in his book, describes the inlet buttplate edge as a traditional method as opposed to having a flat surface on the buttplate.