Author Topic: Carving design check  (Read 8193 times)

Offline coopersdad

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Carving design check
« on: March 31, 2012, 08:59:14 PM »
I would greatly appreciate any criticism on the carving design so far on my early Lancaster.  I am going for a simple design that will also be within my limited skills (first carved gun I've attempted).   I keep falling off the learning curve, but I have done these elements on practice blocks, although this wood is pretty soft (easily dented with a fingernail) and I've had many issues with pieces chipping off and fuzzy edges, so fine details are a no-go for this one.   It all looked great on the gun, but I can already see some issues in the photos.

Thanks!











Inner curve of the upper c scroll has a flat spot I see.  On the thick part of the lower c scroll, the plan is to "scoop" that out with a gouge.  I also plan on some flutes on the lower part of the cheekpiece - haven't drawn those in yet.



« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 09:01:17 PM by coopersdad »
Mike Westcott

Offline Jerry V Lape

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Re: Carving design check
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2012, 10:44:55 PM »
The use of so many volutes, especially those on the front of the cheekpiece which is symetrical with the one on the right side is not typical with Rococo style which is asymetrical and not repetitive.  The tang carving doesn't fit with anything else in form.  You didn't say whether this was to be a relief carved or incised design.  Looks to be largely incised which you may find harder than doing a simple relief design.  Incised is very unforgiving of any mishaps with the lines.  Try to incorporate some of the other natural forms common to Rococo.     
« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 10:49:43 PM by Jerry V Lape »

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Carving design check
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2012, 11:30:44 PM »
On the behind the cheek design, I'd personally like to see the upper scroll occupy more of the space toward the inside corner of the buttplate.

I like the big scroll, in its size and shape.

The big scroll could move up some, so the top scroll doesn't have to stretch so hard for that upper corner.
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Offline Don Getz

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Re: Carving design check
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2012, 12:07:29 AM »
Instead of trying to be creative, copy something out of RCA that you like, and falls withing the school of guns you are building...........Don

Offline coopersdad

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Re: Carving design check
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2012, 01:47:27 AM »
Acer, I see what you mean about the upper scroll.  I didn't think I was being very creative,  I copied most of the basic forms from RCA 66, 67, 70 and some others probably, but simplified them greatly.  I have had some success carving rising volutes with just one stab to define it, but I do struggle with incised ones when I have to make two cuts to widen the line. I may work on some more foliage type designs in place of the incised ones on the wrist,  but in practice I had problems with the wood chipping out.   Would it look wrong to just omit the wrist carving completely?

I thought about just doing a plain gun, but nothing ventured nothing gained! 
Mike Westcott

Joe S

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Re: Carving design check
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2012, 05:03:18 AM »
The wood on the last gun I made was as soft as the one you describe.  I’d suggest that with your carving, start with the beavertails.  After those are done, you’ll know if you want to do more.  If it was me, I’d quit there, and get a good piece of wood next time. 

To clean up the fuzzy edges, what I found best was burnishing.   The best burnishing tool was a popsicle stick.  Metal burnishers compressed the wood next to the carving too much.  Hard burnishers also tended to pull off more fibers, and create almost as many problems  as they solved.

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Carving design check
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2012, 05:31:00 AM »
I like your overall concept and designs. They will look just right. I'd do the wrist carving, if you still have the nerve when the time comes. It looks good.

If you're afraid of chipping, sharpen your tools well, and take light cuts.

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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Carving design check
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2012, 04:29:41 PM »
A question for the Landcaster experts:  The volute in front of the cheekpiece Looks well positionde in relation to other things.  The Volute on the otherside LOOKS too far forward.... although it appears to be dircetly across the butt from the one on the cheek side..........  is there any reason the line could not be stretched and the volute be closer to the nose of the patchbox cover??? A person can only see one side of the rifle at a time?? It just seems it would be more pleasing to my eye... Which of course means little when reproducing a historical school.
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Carving design check
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2012, 04:37:34 PM »
I likew what I see except for a few flat  spots and maybe more fullness or roundness in some of the scrolls would be good.  I dd notice quite a step at the rear thimble transition, from fore-arm to fore-end there seems to be quite a depth change or maybe the way you shaped it makes it look more prominent.  on many originals this is a softer transition.
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Offline Don Getz

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Re: Carving design check
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2012, 04:51:02 PM »
I saw what Rich said about the volutes, and agree with his assessment.   The volutes on front of the cheek piece and on
the other side of the stock should be more of an ovall shape, rather than a round one.  This would also apply to the area
around the entry thimble.........Don

Offline coopersdad

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Re: Carving design check
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2012, 06:38:17 PM »
I'm very interested in Dr Boone's question.  I originally had that volute closer to the box lid and liked it there better,  but moved it because I read somewhere mirroring the other side was "correct."  I don't remember where. 
Mike Westcott

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Carving design check
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2012, 12:35:20 AM »
I don't put symmetry first on my priority list of carving 'do's and don'ts'. 

Contemporary building:
A rifle is a work of art; and there are limitless approaches. There are few rights and wrongs.
You can be loose with your application of design, shape, carve and engrave what looks right, feels right to you. Conversely, you can be tight and exacting with your design work.

The most important thing to me is that I have to be happy working on the gun. If I am doing something that sticks in my craw, it takes all the fun out of it. I am working for me, not anyone else.

It comes down to what you enjoy, how you like to work, what you envision your finished piece to be. You have to do a bit of soul searching to figure out how each gun you build is going to look like in your mind, get your concept clear before you begin. A drawing helps tremendously in this, not only get your stock shape down, but WHERE the components go, how they relate to each other, where the lockbolts must pass, where the rr channel lies in relation to the lock and barrel, and on and on.

Some of my guns have been tight and exacting, and some very loose, designed on the fly. I have to say that I like the 'design as you go school' because my concept changes as I build, sometimes radically. The downside to this is that I sometimes work myself into a corner.

But un-symmetrical scrolls on either side of the wrist won't give me any problems. I understand that completely. The gun would look better if you use more of that wide open space between the patchbox and scroll.

But it's all opinion, and there's plenty of that here, so in the end, you read all the opinions, and do it the way you're gonna do it anyway. ;D
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Offline coopersdad

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Re: Carving design check
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2012, 03:46:28 AM »
You are right.  I often get so wrapped around the axle about doing it perfectly I forget I'm the only one who has to be happy with it.   I see so much fantastic work here that I can only wish to approach it.  Btw I've moved that scroll closer to the box and flattened some volutes as suggested and they look better.  I spent rest of the day cutting incised scrolls on scrap. Actually getting them looking acceptable (ish) .  I thank everyone for the help!
Mike Westcott

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Carving design check
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2012, 06:06:48 PM »
I see so much fantastic work here that I can only wish to approach it.

Comparing your work to others can be very helpful, certainly. But comparison can also have negative impact. For example: "why should I try, because it would never be as good as so-and-so's work"

Try to keep some perspective while you build, remember always why you build, and have some compassion for yourself when you make mistakes.
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Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline Jerry V Lape

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Re: Carving design check
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2012, 07:50:49 PM »
When I was really struggling to get going with carving, and building for that matter, looking at original rifles in RCA and in person whenever I could helped a lot.  I noticed even the most revered of the builders weren't perfect or even reasonably good. Only the very elite of the original builders carving is hard to beat.  So I felt set free to try - not that I have arrived yet! 

Offline J. Talbert

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Re: Carving design check
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2012, 08:05:39 PM »
I've skimmed thru the previous posts and I wouldn't disagree but I have another question.
I don't see a picture of the whole cheek piece, but appears to me that it MAY be a little long.  This is just my preference, but I think that cutting the tail end of the cheek piece forward a bit, and creating more of an arc of the upper edge of it may create a better looking canvas for the rear carving??

By the same token, I would probably cut the front of it back a little more away from the comb, for the same reason. 

I'm not 100% sure without seeing the whole cheek side of the butt.

Does anybody else see it that way, or am I out in left field??? ???

Jeff
There are no solutions.  There are only trade-offs.”
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Carving design check
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2012, 09:18:34 PM »
I read to the end of these posts to find Jeff's comments were similar to my own observations.  I think that the cheek piece extends too far to the rear - could be shortened and that curve to the butt plate return made softer and smoother.  That would open some room to make your 'behind the cheek piece' design a little more open and flowing.  Too, It seems to me that the cheek piece is a little heavy...might be shaved down to around 3/8" height.  Keep the cheek piece concave rather than convex or flat too.  Other's advice about design elements is good.
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Carving design check
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2012, 09:28:28 PM »
Cheekpiece does look a little big and thick if the light isn't making it appear moreso.  I think it's easy from pictures of originals to over-estimate how high a cheekpiece should be.

Check out this Schroyer on our own forum
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=4401.0

and this one too http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=4246.0

and a Beck http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=2303.0
 
and this Fainot which is early like the rifle you're building
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=15403.0.

Note how concave the cheekpiece is and that the majority of its mass is below a line extended from the center of the wrist through the middle of the buttplate.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 09:29:36 PM by rich pierce »
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Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Carving design check
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2012, 10:20:32 PM »
It's hard to build a gun working from on-line photos. You don't get the whole picture. I am referencing the cheekpiece comments.

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Offline coopersdad

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Re: Carving design check
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2012, 04:32:33 AM »
The cheekpiece is about 1/2" high at the rear.  I have struggled with its size and form,  and feared taking too much off.  Yes, it is hard working from photos - someday I hope to handle an original rifle!   Mr Pierce's comment about most mass being below the centerline is a simple comment but makes the lightbulb go on for me more than photos or the descriptions in the building books I have.   Would it be fair to say the cheek side of the butt is the essentially the same profile as the lock side, gradually sloping out beginning  above the centerline to the cheekpiece edge,  which creates the concavity of the surface?
Mike Westcott

Offline Tom Currie

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Re: Carving design check
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2012, 04:59:02 AM »
I'm sort of a volute junkie so I'll give some thoughts on your volutes. Some of yours are oval and some are round, with the one near the top of the buttplate almost flatish. Try to be consistant in your design. Classic volutes tighten as they get near the middle, yours sort of dont. Most early PA rifles like Lancasters  have volutes that tighten in the center. More rurally built and sometimes southern rifles have less classic volutes.  I also agree you are working with a minimal space from the cheekpiece to the buttplate. I believe this is cramping your design forcing it a bit out of proportion  making your task a bit dificult.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Carving design check
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2012, 05:53:13 AM »
Would it be fair to say the cheek side of the butt is the essentially the same profile as the lock side, gradually sloping out beginning  above the centerline to the cheekpiece edge,  which creates the concavity of the surface?

yes, in many cases that is exactly how it's done.
Andover, Vermont