Author Topic: Charge & twist as functions for accuracy?  (Read 3337 times)

Naphtali

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Charge & twist as functions for accuracy?
« on: April 03, 2012, 11:09:12 PM »
Forsythe rifling, as I understand it, is an extremely slow rate of twist. It is intended to allow the shooter to hugely increase his propellant charge behind a round ball for substantial increase in velocity.

I have .72-caliber barrels with 1:72 inches twist - definitely faster than would be Forsythe rifling. Has anyone confirmed an upper limit on amount of FFg that can be used to shoot RBs above which the ball strips the rifling and accuracy goes to pot?

Or a little differently, has anyone confirmed a upper limit on muzzle velocity for .72-caliber (.715 + .015) patched balls above which the ball strips the rifling and accuracy goes to pot?

Daryl

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Re: Charge & twist as functions for accuracy?
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2012, 02:22:22 AM »
To answer that question----- no specific scientific tests that I know.

My 14 bore has .012" rifling with a 66" rate of twist.  I tested that rifle off sand bags to 200gr. 2F on target and achieved the same accuracy at 100 meters as when using only 140gr.  ie: 1" to 1 1/2" accuracy at 100 meters or 3" at 200 which is the last time I benched it, last summer.  

Any less than 140gr.2F and the accuracy degrades. More powder merely shoots the same, but with a flatter trajectory.   Due to the deeper rifling and faster twist than the Forsyth principal, I am using a .684" ball along with a minimum of .030" patch.  Like I've said before, you have to WANT to seat it flush. Once there, it loads what I call easily with the rifle's tapered Hickory rod, 7/16" to 3/8".   Although I'm getting long in the tooth, I'm still far from weak, I guess.  

With the lighter powder charges like 82gr. of 2F, this rifle will allow a thinner patch, but not with the heavy ones - they hole and burn.  Thus, I want the slower twist and shallower rifling of Forsyth's principal - but in a 16 bore.  Even the slightly undersized 14 bore ball kicks a bit much for me now- or will in a year or two.

I had to increase patch thickness with heavier charges as my barrel was burning normal the .0225" patches (with normal combination .005" under ball with 10 ounce denim patch) with the heavier charges of powder. Lighter charges, although accurate to 40yards and not too bad to 60yards, did not give me the accuracy nor the trajectory I demanded for heavy game and longer ranges.

For some reason this particular barrel demands to be fed larger than normal powder charges to achieve it's BEST & repeatable accuracy.  I would have expected a 66" twist to shoot well with a mere 110gr. to 120gr. 2F. Perhaps this is because it is has a far from smooth interior - it has radial marks caused by the poorly done original reaming - looking more like drilling marks.  It never picks up fouling, but does not load as slickly as any other barrel I have & they all shoot the heavier charges with the standard "combination".

There might be other causes - Forsyth addressed one.

Perhaps the demand for heavier powder charges is due, as Forsyth indicated, to the damage caused to the sides of the ball in impressing it into the lands with a heavy patch which causes more atmospheric disturbance which causes loss of stability and therefore accuracy. The heavy patch was necessary due to the depth of rifling. The depth of rifling was necessary due to the quickness of the twist. The twist rate demanded a tighter load be used so the ball wouldn't strip in the rifling.  The required tighter load demanded thicker patching which caused damage to the ball  - ie: -  Forsyth's vicious circle of demands.  Each 'fix' caused more problems.  He found that 'hunting accuracy' could be obtained with such a slow twist and shallow rifling, that merely humored the ball out the barrel, rather than forcing it into radical spinning in faster twists which did strip with healthy loads.

His written word also stated that twists could be one turn in 10feet or even as slow as one turn in 12feet if one only required hunting accuracy to a mere 150yards.  If accuracy to 200yards was desired, then the 1/4 turn was his favourite.

A moose and I suppose the side of a water buffalo as well, has about a 30" kill zone on it's side - that's a big X ring.  I demand better accuracy and am cautious about going too far in slow twisting, due to the powder charges they might demand.  Afterall, my 66" twist demanded at least 140gr.  I want a twist that will shoot accurately enough for me, yet have shallow easily loading rifling that will hold the ball "without tripping over the rifle".(his words to describe stipping)

I was not be happy with 3" to 4" groups at 100 yards and rainbow trajectories which is what a mere 82gr. (3drams) of powder provided in the .69.  I did not like those groups, nor the arching trajectory, therefore I tested with more powder until I achieved my demands - firstly to achieve the accuracy as in 140gr.2F and secondly to obtain the desired trajectory, which required even more powder, ie: 165gr.2f- GOEX.  I now have a 6" point blank range where the ball is neither more than 3" above nor below the line of sight all the way to 125yards. Not bad for a 480gr. round ball.  Trouble is, it is difficult to load with WW alloy balls due to the depth of rifling.

The trouble with a slow twist, shallow rifling in a .72 cal. barrel is, it's going to kick with a load that will accuracy shoot it's  545gr. ball in a slow twist?  If I were to build one, it would be 10 pounds or more and of English design of the 1850's - no other is suitable.

72" is faster than Forsyth's 1/4 turn principal said, should be used in rifles.  But then, so is 80" or 90".  His principal called for a 1/4 turn in the length of the barrels - normally 26" bl. therefore 104" twist.  He also called for very shallow rifling and very narrow lands - almost 'knife' edged or knife-like were his words, to use a ball that barely passed down the bore. The patch alone was to 'take' the rifling.  No particulars were given as to actual width or depth.  If use to seeing .030" rifling as on the continent in some rifles, perhaps .010" seemed shallow. It looks shallow in my 14 bore barrel, especially compared to the rounded rifling in other large bore barrels I've seen. A friend has one in .75 cal. - too deep to fill with with normal patching of up to .030".

Since the patch must also be pressed between the ball and the tops of the lands, yet allow easy loading, we surmise/guess that the ball used was probably 1 bore size smaller - ie: a 13 bore ball in a .12 bore rifle, 15 in a 14, etc. and something on the order of heavy linen was used - maybe around .016" to .018".

A 14 bore, ie: .693" bore with .008" rifling would be .709" groove to groove. (.709 is actually 13 bore, groove to groove - that makes sense in more ways than one)  A .677" ball with .016" patch, would measure out at .677 + .016 + .016 = .709" - same as the groove depth.  The .018" patchwould load, in narrow lands, almost as easily and the rod would almost push the ball down by it's own weight - any hardness of ball could be used - the other MAJOR factor and reason for rifling shallow and slow.

The most important aspect of Forsyth's principal is that the rifling must be shallow enough to allow any hardness balls to be used.

Hard or hardened balls were necessary to penetration sufficiently on dangerous game.  At that time, muzzleloading bullets were cast of soft lead to allow easy loading and had to be soft to allow obturation/expansion by the powder charge to 'take' the rifling - The problem in using soft bullets was that soft bullets gave dangerously shallow penetration on heavy game, especially when they struck heavy bone. They simply stopped or deflected into the 'soft parts of the body, causing little or no damage", more like the thrust of a sword, rather than the smashing blow of a hammer, which the spherical ball provided.  

Samuel Baker spoke of that more than once.   The conical "Led me into such scrapes that I eventually gave the conical us as useless for killing dangerous game".

In short

The twist must be slow enough, that a 'weak' ball and patch combination that loaded easily with a hardened ball, still held onto the grooves with heavy charges, gave game killing accuracy and was easily reloaded.  A tall order, but filled by his design - if you can handle the recoil in the larger sizes.

This is my opinion on the why's and wherefores.

 
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 02:27:23 AM by Daryl »

William Worth

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Re: Charge & twist as functions for accuracy?
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2012, 02:40:01 AM »
I have come to the grim conclusion that accuracy is directly proportional to the cost of the powder.... :(

Offline bgf

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Re: Charge & twist as functions for accuracy?
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2012, 02:42:44 AM »
Daryl,
That is a dissertation and very interesting reading!  I'm glad you did that testing and not me -- I don't mind recoil, but I do have some limits :)!  One thing I wonder is whether 1F or 1.5F powder might not be easier on patches with the heavier loads.  I found even in my .50 that 2F works better at a certain point than 3F, just because the 3F seems to be rougher on the patches.  It is not a big deal for my normal target shooting as 3F loads are more than adequate, but for hunting, esp. if I expected longer shots like out where you all are, I would probably use 2F.  Just wondering if you tried bigger granulations?

The other DWS

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Re: Charge & twist as functions for accuracy?
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2012, 03:05:24 AM »
not sure I understand it completely but  .  .  .  .  . 

does accuracy depend on rotational velocity,  gyroscopically speaking?   2 ways I see to get rotational velocity,  faster twist  at a given velocity, or higher forward velocity with a slower twist.

with a round ball you cannot adjust projectile weight (within very small limits)  so projectile weight will be a constant.  for more accuracy you have to spin the ball more,  ergo more powder=more forward velocity,  but with more velocity at a fixed twist rate you reach a point where stripping becomes an issue, so you have to go to the slower twist.

I think maybe possibly, or not ???

Offline KNeilson

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Re: Charge & twist as functions for accuracy?
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2012, 04:17:04 AM »
Thx Daryl, answered a few of my questions. fwiw, I have a .62 with a 104 twist, .010 deep grooves, however its not "Forsyth" style rifling. It has  a more even land to groove ratio, also on Rices "list" for a .62 x 34" straight taper when they get done.  So far  Ive used .617 balls with  .018 patch, tried going thicker but need some crown work first. atm I`m finding below 80g2F is lousy past 50 yds and the groups close up starting at 100g2f. Beyond 120g I`m getting cut patches and fliers, and my plan was to try thicker material, or possibly a felt wad or shot card.
bgf
Quote
One thing I wonder is whether 1F or 1.5F powder might not be easier on patches
I tried 1F and all I noticed was increased fouling, didnt do a lot to improve patches in my case.
I`ll second Daryls comment on rifle weight, Recoil with a 350g .62 ball is enough for me, being not the biggest guy I dont want anything bigger. Can only wonder what an bigger bore with a full on charge feels like!!
regards......           Kerry

The other DWS

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Re: Charge & twist as functions for accuracy?
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2012, 04:51:23 AM »
"Can only wonder what an bigger bore with a full on charge feels like!! "

considerably better than being the recipient of a "full-on-charge" by one of the critters they were meant to be used on.

I have always felt that perceived recoil is directly proportional to the size and proximity of dangerous game.  the bigger and closer and more dangerous, the less the recoil is perceived

Daryl

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Re: Charge & twist as functions for accuracy?
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2012, 05:13:25 AM »
Guys are all on the right page as far as I can see.  Kerry - I-too have trouble with the normal .022" patches past 100gr. & the only way to aleviate it was with tighter combinations. I'm actually using 12 ounce denim - it's the thickest denim I could find.  I'm sure they don't make a 14 ounce - this stuff, when dry, is like canvas.  It actually measures .0255" with my mic. which measures .001" tighter than Taylor's mic. My calipers run it at .030" to .033" depending on the set I grab.

Yes, DWS - by all means I would have no trouble shooting 10 drams (273.5gr.) out of a 10 or 6 bore with a hardened ball, at a charging ----------------you fill in the blank.  I'm sure I wouldn't feel  much - well, maybe a  just a little?

DWS - I did use GOEX 1F in a test - neglected to mention that - sorry. I went to 220gr. and achieved the same velocity as 180gr. of GOEX produced - around 1,700fps - but with a LOT more recoil, however BOTH loads were to much for me for plinking. It didn't take me long to abondon the 1F. It was quite slow, but did shoot accurately. I notice no difference in fouling. Yeah-[ I know, some guys notice a difference. Pehaps it's a patch thickness thing - ie.

I'd expect my rifle to shoot well with anywhere close to 140gr. Swiss - maybe even 125gr., a mere 4 3/4) drams.

Samual Baker wrote that a hardened ball that size - driven by 4 or 4 1/2 drams of powder - would penetrate through and through an elephant's head.   1st of all, he was talking about an Indian Elephant, and about a 14 bore rifle, so a 15 bore ball - .677" - the powder most used then by the 'wealthy' most likely was Curtis and Harvey's #6, the best of that day. Apparently Swiss produces similar downrange ballistics, but isn't quite as 'moist' burning.

Now, we know that Forsyth's writings give the trajectory to attain, no matter the 'cost' - recoil and dollars in powder.  With GOEX, I needed to use 165gr.- a full 6 drams of powder to achieve his trajectory goals, ie: 1,550fps gave me those trajectories.

Love that book.

Abotu the estra heavy charges to get MY barrel to shoot. I do think Forsyth was onto something in the damage to the sides of the ball and the extra drag in the atmosphere, causing more rapid twists to be used, etc, etc.

The bore of my .69 is far from smooth like a Getz, Rice or GM barrel.  The cross bore reamer marks on the tops of the lands are easily seen in every 'crown' picture I've shown here. The bore does feel smooth when loading, but still refuses to shoot 'slow' loads well. It is getting better, year by year, though - which is interesting in itself, which also lends credibility to my roughness theory. For instance, 80gr. of 2f will now shoot into 1 1/2" at 50 yards, whereas it took 96gr. of GOEX 2f to do that 20 years ago. Perhaps the improved powder today is the reason, I don't know. I'd like to think it was the barrel shooting better.

DWS - as to accuracy being tied only to rotational speed and velocity, I don't think so. I think Forsyth might have been onto something with the 'form' of the ball being important as well.

My current .32 Tenn. rifle is the only rifle I've shot where a reduction in accuracy occured with the addition of more powder.

I admit that with the .40 and .45 rifles, I stopped at 2,260fps - approx. both rifles - both rifles with 3F and 2f GOEX loads. Where I stopped, the accuracy was the very best I had seen out of thosse barrel but - they had shot that same accuracy with 5gr. less power.

  Perhaps if I had gone to 2,275fps or 2,300fps, another 5 or 10 gr., accuracy would have been even better. As it was, it was pretty much consistant at 1/2" for 5 shots at 50 yards.  The .40 has a 48" twist, while the .45 is 60". Same velocity, same accuracy - different make of barrels, with different ratio of lands and groove widths- one lapped, perhaps one lapped by firing a few thousand times.

Sorry- all this is getting away from the barrels we're talking about.

My idea of the ultimate, is a barrel, smooth inside, which has rifling about .005" or .006" at most deep, 80" twist and .670" bore, just as Jason noted.  I'm sure I can make that barrel hum and shoot into the same 1" to 1 1/2" at 100 metrs that I seem capable of with the express sights. I've only shot consistantly better than that with aperture sights on VERY accuracy ctg. rifles.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 05:37:52 AM by Daryl »

Naphtali

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Re: Charge & twist as functions for accuracy?
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2012, 07:52:16 PM »
Wow! First time in the history of [any] forum replies where every reply was on point. Many thanks to all of you.
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I had not considered propellant cost before - GIGO.