Lehigh Valley Lube

[Daryl]

That makes sense, Erik.

[JohnnyM]

Yeah, I'd have to second what elaird said.  Perhaps it was the patch that held the moisture for rust to start considering there is no other rust on the barrel where the lube residue exists.
Let's not overlook the obvious: a liquid lube that dries out is not the best choice for a huntin' load that may remain in the barrel for a spell whether it is blamed for rust or not.

[Seven]

Taylor is right, my plastic tubes were sealed on both ends.  BUT, if we use tight patch and ball combos, wouldn't the bore essentially be sealed anyway?  I mean if it seals it against the pressure of expanding gasses from the burning of black powder wouldn't it also seal it from the evaporation of patch lubricant?  So I'm not sure I'm buying that argument just yet.  I'll do some testing with the same combo but I'll see if I can leave the ends open.  I'll figure out a way to keep the powder in there while still having it open. 

As for the bore rusting, has anyone ever sat a patched ball with no lube on it in the bore to see if it collects the condensation? 
-chad

[Daryl]

Interesting idea, Seven - Although the combination was a tight one, the wicking action of liquids in cloth obviously allowed the patch to dry out - I saw it and it was dry- with rust.  The combination Taylor listed above would be difficult to seat in a bore without lubrication. .495" ball + .023" patch = .541" in a .524" groove diameter for .0185" compression per side. That is a load that seals & needs lubrication to seat. Since we don't shoot combinations that would allow loading in a dry bore, we won't be testing a dry bore.  In this case, the powder's chamber was sealed between the breech block and the patched ball. It did not rust as no condensation reached it - apparently - or did that area dry through the patch? That the patch must have absorbed moisture and dried slowly, causing rust seems evident.  That the bore itself was protected somewhat by the 'dry ed' LHV then, exposed to air and thus dried quickly & didn't rust is possible.  But- what about the powder chamber where the moisture present could not have evaporated, except that the moisture may have gone into the patch as well, seems correct, where it then sat against the bore, causing rust.

The first test of 5 days showed no rust. We must remember that. That barrel was left out in the 'elements' for 5 days, although the temperatures were not extreme - just barely freezing to about 40F during the day = little or no condensation as the temperature changes were gradual - the kicker?. Were that 5 day experiment redone in temperatures that run more normal for winter here, such as -20 or colder at night, then brought back inside the house producing much more moisture through condensation than the second test provided, we may have witnessed rusting in that short test. Don't know.

 To repeat the tests with grease of some sort - mink oil, or some concoction of beeswax or SPG and neetsfoot oil - something like that.  I've left the .69 sitting for many months, loaded with a mink-oil (paste until touched by hands) lubed patch with no rust. It sat in the house after being out hunting for day, from October through December and on into January before being discharged - no problems with accuracy and no rust occurred.

[Mad Monk]

When Tom DeCare attended the Gunmaker's Fair with the Lehigh Valley Lube he would state that if you will leave the gun loaded for any length of time you should lube the patch and then let it air dry before using the patch to load the gun.

Reading the debate about condensation in the bore.
Going back to when they first opened up all of PA for the flintlock season.  Six of us at a deer camp in Tioga County.  An old farm house that we heated mainly with wod stoves.
When we would come back into the old farm house we stripped off boots and wet clothing in a room off the kitchen.  Small room once known as a mud room from the days when it was a working farm.  No direct heating of the room .
When I would come in I would leave my loaded rifle outside on the porch that had a roof over it.  Vent would be plugged with a bird feather.  A plastic bag over the muzzle but not tied down in any way.  That was to keep any blowing rain or snow out of the muzzle.  The other 5 brought their rifles into the mud room and leaned them in the gun rack.  All plugged the vents with round tooth picks.
In 3 days of hunting we saw nothing close enough to shoot at.  The 4th day we packed up for the trip home.  I had the only rifle that would fire.  The other rifles all suffered from damp charges  They would either not fire at all or sounded really weak and slow when they did fire.
Condensation in the barrel which they ran down onto the patched ball.  The patch then simply wicked the water down into the powder charge.

The base ingredient in the Lehigh Valley lube is a good rust prevention when it is as a dry film.   Not that swift as a wet film.

The dry lube itself is not overly hygroscopic nor is a cotton fiber cloth patch.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I have a strong feeling that the cause of the oxidation was the continuous move from cold/moist to room temp and dry.  I believe condensation formed in the test barrel, was held in the patch longer than the powder and rest of the bore, and there's your rust.  I think that's what happened to Neil's rifle this fall.

I'll repeat the test with a new barrel and mink oil.

Stay tuned...

[Daryl]

I think I noted earlier - maybe in another post of similar nature, that on the very cold moose hunts, the hunters either discharged their rifles every day and cleaned them, or simply left the loaded firearm leaning against a tree with a piece of tarp over it for protection. My 14 bore, thus treated did not rust - I used mink oil on the last hunt, but on earlier hunts used liquid baby oil.

 I did a test with LHV a few years ago, allowing the patches to dry before shooting them. Actually this test came about as I found on the second trip to the range, the prelubed patches had dried - I shot them anyway, and found the dry LHV to be a fair lube for a few shots only, but of course, fouling did build up and subsequent loading required the bore to be swabbed. I quickly replenished the lube in the patch box and continued as normal with no wiping necessary.  So - dry LHV is better than some preps, maybe a good one for hunting afterall if day as the Monk says, but does not allow unlimited shooting without swabbing.  The easiest way to test this is to lube up a bunch of patches and leave them on the table for a few hours. Thus exposed to the atmosphere, they dry fairly quickly.  Lubed and stored in a tin box, it takes much longer to dry.  Lubed and stored in Track's nickle 'tinder' box with the hinge 1/4 of the way down the top and they'll remain wet for a week or more. This of course is due to a fair seal of the lid.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I breeched the other end of this same test barrel stub and turned off the threads on the last breech end.  Good practice crowning. I ran a WD 40 patch down the barrel then a dry one, and loaded it with 65 grains FFg GOEX and the same patch material as test one, but with mink oil squeezed into the cloth.  I seated a new .495" pure lead ball on the powder, and set the thing in the carport again.  I'll bring it in every night, and in a week - Dec. 19th - I'll pull the load and check the bore.  So we'll be able to compare the results with the LHV load.  The only thing I changed was the patch lube.

[Daryl]

That lathe is a psecial machine for sure. I just used it to crown the .40 barrel after fitting it to a different stock = the canoe gun is now a 36" barreled squirrel rifle.  I also did the crowning on the lathe - slightly easier then by hand.

[Brian]

Okay - it's the 19th!  Test results please (drum roll)   

I'm waiting to see if I should pour 2 gallons of LVL down the drain 

[William Worth]

Yes you should (pour it down the drain).  I can provide that service for you if you will send it here.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Well, the experiment is finished.  In a clean and perfect bore, as if you were loading to go hunting, I poured 65 grains FFg GOEX, and seated a .023 denim patch soaked with TOW's Mink Oil, actually rubbed into both sides between thumb and forefinger until saturated, and a .495 pure lead round ball.  the patched ball was seated firmly on the powder.
On the morning of the 12th of December, I put the barrel out in the car port where it was subjected to temperatures ranging from -5 to -25 Celsius.  Each evening I brought the barrel into the shop where it is about 60 F or a bit warmer.  The frozen barrel would gather a film of condensation which dried by morning as the barrel came to room temperature.  I did not do anything to protect the bore or the outside other than the initial loading.
A few minutes ago, i brought the barrel in again, unbreeched it and removed the load.  I pushed a couple of clean patches through the bore and found absolutely no rust whatever in any part of the bore.  The outside of the plug which I suspect is 12L14 has the beginning of a nice even brown.  The barrel, though, is still bright.  It is a piece of Green Mountain ML barrel.
One more thing...in the first experiment, the Lehigh Valley Lube had all but evaporated.  In the second one however, the patch is just as greasy and wet as it was when I loaded it a week ago.

I'll post a couple of pictures in a minute.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Photobucket is doing it again...won't let me copy and paste.  So you'll have to take my word for it for now.

[Daryl]

Taylor- was there any contaminated powder from the oil/powder contact. This is quite important as wads open groups (slightly) in my current rifles.  You failed to note this, this time.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Thanks Daryl.  No.  The powder was dry and only a few granules stuck to the grease in the patch.  I'm certain there would have been no velocity drop from soaked powder.  None of the grease had evaporated, that I could determine.  It was still filled with Mink Oil and pushed out easily with a dowel.  That's .023" denim, mink oil, and a .495" pure lead ball.  This is not a combination that is difficult to load in a fowled barrel...that's another story.