TRS Manton "V" pan flintlock dimensions?

[Ezra]

Hey guys,

I know someone here has made the Manton V-pan flintlock sold by TRS.  Can someone tell me the finished dimensions of the lockplate?  Just wondering if it's small enough to use for a pistol or if it is exclusively a fowler lock.  






Thanks.


Ez

[Ezra]

Never mind.  4 5/8" x 15/16".  It will work.


Ez

[Glenn]

I've always felt that was a very impressive lock.  Good to know the dimesions.

[Don Tripp]

That is a nice looking lock. Was there a long wait for it?

[Ezra]

Regrettably, the pictured lock is not mine.  But it is a rather elegant looking lock.


Ez

[Vomitus]

 Hey Ez,
 I love the looks of this lock. Is TRS the only builder of such a lock? Jerry Huddleston has used a lock like this on a couple of his builds. I got a pistol barrel too and am snooping around for some parts.This barrel is 9 1/4", Oct to rnd tapered to a cannon muzzle. I'd like to see an example of this lock used on a pistol gonne.

[Ezra]

Hey LB,

Dyson & Son offers a very similar lockplate, cock and frizzen.  But I don't think they provide internals.

http://www.peterdyson.co.uk/acatalog/Pistols.html


Ez

[Dphariss]

Never mind.  4 5/8" x 15/16".  It will work.


Ez

Remember its a recessed breech lock and requires a recessed patent breech.
Assuming its the one in the TRS Catalog.



Dan

[Ezra]

Something like this, right Dan?  I think you posted this some time back, a great photo, BTW. 




Ez

[Hungry Horse]

OK my turn to ask a dumb question, Who is/are TRS? I love this lock.

                     Hungry Horse

[Ezra]

TRS = The Rifle Shoppe

http://therifleshoppe.com/


Ez

[Bob Roller]

I made a pair of Mantons for a man in Tn.years ago but they were not this style. These have the cock that strikes the back of the flash fence and are not heavy duty locks. E.M.Farris had a Manton pistol with this style of lock and the fence was battered and the bridle inside was cracked. I also made a pair of Nock locks and as TRS says, they came from Lynton McKenzie.I had the right hand one in my possesion for about a year for study.This was in 1979-80 and shortly before I got the dies to produce the external parts for the original Bailes lock which I still have.On the above mentioned Manton and Nock locks,I did not use the cast internals and thought they were too flimsy to be used over a long run of time.
For me,the L&R small manton with my own internal parts is a workable lock for most uses today that a flintlock can be used for,

Bob Roller

[Don Tripp]

TRS = The Rifle Shoppe

http://therifleshoppe.com/


Ez

No pictures of the locks in their on line catalog. Aggravating.

[David Rase]

TRS = The Rifle Shoppe

http://therifleshoppe.com/


Ez

No pictures of the locks in their on line catalog. Aggravating.

No pictures in their on line catalog is the least of your aggrivations with TRS.  See how long you have to wait for something after you order it, now theres aggrivation.  I've had items arrive in 2 weeks and I've had items that didn't arrive after 2 years.  It's like Las Vegas in Oklahoma.
Dave

[Ezra]

TRS has a catalog with pictures.

Here are a couple linkys I found fascinating regarding this lock and a gentleman who built one.

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/mantonlock/mantonlock.html

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/mantonlock/mantonlock2.html

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/mantonlock/mantonlock3.html


Ez

[Bob Roller]

Ezra,
NOW you know why I didn't want anything to do with the reproduced parts for the inside of the locks I made for the man in Tn. We waited 9 months for these external parts.
As new units in the 1700's,these locks were marvels of craftsmanship and still are but I wonder how long they would stand up to today's competition shooters demands even if made from the far superior materials we have today. I am thinking of a conversation with Lynton McKenzie years ago when he told me he started his gunsmithing career by repairing locks of all kinds made by legendary makers like Manton,Brazier and others and told me that in spite of the elegant workmanship,just about every part except the lock plate broke at one time or another. I am convinced that there was a lot of iron used and then after final filing and shaping, the parts were case hardened to then unknown depths and were brittle as glass. Last year I made a new "4 pin"bridle for a caplock and the FRONT upper post/screw guide was broken by cocking the hammer fast and hard and when the tumbler arm hit the post one time too many it shattered it and that created a horrible over travel that stressed that ancient mainspring to dangerous levels.
Using relics,especially small internal lockparts that were minimum or undersize to begin with is not a good way to make a reliable lock. That is OK maybe for restoring
a lock that will not be used much IF any at all but I wouldn't accept such a job and most of you know I have made a number of locks and I mean MADE them,no kits. Also,there is a reason so many of these magnificent relics survive in very fne condition,they were not used and were prestige items for the ones that had money.

Bob Roller

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

That's a real mouthful Bob.
I built several guns for a local fellow, who is single, and totally obsessed with shooting his guns.  It's what he lives for.  Consequently, in a very shot time, he subjects his guns to unbelievable wear.  I have replaced frizzens on his Hawken rifle and two of his Tulles three times in the past seven years.  In addition, he has complete sets of already fitted replacement parts for each of his guns, as well as fitted, tuned and finished replacement locks for them.  He does not want to have to stop shooting because of a worn out or broken part, and he understands that these firearms were never designed to be used as hard as he uses his.  In spite of all of the use our rifles and smoothies get, the locks last a very long time.  And locks with parts such as Bob Roller makes can be reliably expected to outlast any lock with cast parts.  Even so, most of my own guns have modern cast parts locks, and I trust them to work well for a very long time without constant maintenance.  I submit that we subject our guns to much more use than folks did in the day.  Today's modern locks, speaking of those by reputable firms such as Chambers, are just a marvel, and very inexpensive.

[Bob Roller]

Taylor,
It isn't the fact that the parts are castings.The problem is with using antique parts for mould making and no compensation for shrinkage.
Cast parts like Jim Chambers uses are fine because they were developed with casting as the way of producing them.I think L&R uses both parts intended to be cast and perhaps antiques as well. There are others but I know nothing about them. TRS parts are good for restoration,especially of guns with fragile parts from new and are the only American source as far as I know for such odd components.

Bob Roller

[Dphariss]

TRS = The Rifle Shoppe

http://therifleshoppe.com/


Ez

No pictures of the locks in their on line catalog. Aggravating.

No pictures in their on line catalog is the least of your aggrivations with TRS.  See how long you have to wait for something after you order it, now theres aggrivation.  I've had items arrive in 2 weeks and I've had items that didn't arrive after 2 years.  It's like Las Vegas in Oklahoma.
Dave

I waited about a year for all the parts to come in then ended up making a main spring, link and tumbler and the internal part of the safety on my TRS Manton rifle lock. Then faced the frizzen since it would not spark for long when the face was casehardened. Suspect its 4140 or similar.

But the lock is very reliable, probably a 1000 shots. I really like it a lot, its slightly different than the V-pan, being a slightly earlier Manton design and for an application that needed it I would use it or another Manton design without hesitation.
The internals on the Manton style FL I have are identical to those shown in TOWs Purdey  Percussion rifle drawings.
So the internals were apparently in use for 40-50 years at least. I think the better locks often had steel internals by 1800 or so though it would be tough to tell when looking a the new lock. W. Greener pointed out in his 1830s book "The Gun" that it took a discerning eye to tell a "good" grade lock from a "best" quality and that at least some lock filers were not above taking shortcuts in fitting and materials if they could get away with it.
Metallurgy was a problem and this carried on into the American Civil War era when continued improvements in steel making made a far stronger steel with fewer flaws. As a result the Colt 1851 navy frame size could be used for 44 caliber revolvers.
Modern steel making is a far more reliable than even 1900 steel making which was light years ahead of 1800 steel making.

Dan

[Ezra]

Amazing is the knowledge that lives here. 


Ez

[Vomitus]

 Ez,I agree!  Sure is a pretty lock,isn't it. Might have to have Bob make us a couple!

[Ezra]

Might have to have Bob make us a couple!
[/quote

  


Ez