Shooting off my "hind legs"

[FRJ]

I've got my new GPR barrel really shooting well and now I'm starting to "shoot off my hind legs". I'm all over the place!!! At one time in my life I was a lifetime master with the pistol and I'm trying to transfer that skill to this rifle and not doing well with it. I imagine that a lot of practice is called for and I love doing it anyhow but any tips from you guys and gals would be appreciated. FRJ

[Daryl]

Stance, hold, breathing, trigger control - nothing more to it - HA!

Elbow height isn't cast in stone, and neither is left hand holding onto the forend. Some hold out at or near the entry pipe while others like Roger Fisher (shown) hold under the lock to rest an elbow on the ribs or hip as in Swiss shooting. Some matches do not allow this as it is not "off the hands" only.

[Robby]

To me, its a perishable skill, if you don't keep at it you lose it. Even shooting a pellet gun in the back yard or basement will help, or rig up your gun so you can dry fire it.
Robby

[Daryl]

Robby is absolutely right. Use it or lose it.

A friend of mine called yesterday, noting he'd tried to hit a pop can at a mere 75yards with his scoped wolf rifle - took 3 shots to hit it. A shot like that is easy with irons and a flintlock, as we all know(?).  He's now buying several bricks of .22's to practise with "that" rifle to 'get his competence and confidence back'.  He used to be a good offhand shot, but hasn't actually done any offhand for a number of years.

[SCLoyalist]

I second the suggestion for dry-firing.  Have a couple of dry firing sessions a day,  10 or 20 shots each, to get used to the feel of the gun, tone up the appropriate muscles and develop a trigger pull that doesn't jar the sight picture.

And, if you haven't already done so, so some work off a rest so you have no doubt that your gun and load is shooting tight groups, and that any spread in the group is shooter technique.   

[FRJ]

First of all, I'd like to thank everyone for their support and suggestions on my problem. Then I have a question about the proper form for shooting on my hind legs. I see now that some clubs require that your arm not touch your body when you shoot. I was taught offhand with my arm against my ribs and my hand under the trigger guard now I'm reading that that is not allowed. What is the accepted method in offhand shooting? I know I can  never shoot with both arms just swinging around. Help!!! FRJ

[Daryl]

At Rendexvous BC last year at Hefley Creek (normal spot until we change it's location), there were two events IIRC that did not allow the Swiss Style of Standing Shooting. Offhand only, as in off the hands, no body contact of the arms holding the rifle were allowed.  The restrictions were stated ie" off your hands only, no arm contact with the body and those who still shoot off their bodies, had their scores removed from the competition.

All of the other competitions made no such speculations.  I assume if no body contact is allowed, it is specified before the match - no problem.  I personally can't stand like that any way, too hard on the back - havent' ben able to since the early 80's. 

I probably would if I could, however being able to hold in that manner is not necessary, with practise.  LB holds body hold, but I do think he's the only one of us who does.

[doug]

    I definitely find it far easier to support a heavy rifle using a swiss hold or body rest.  Also feel that there is a bit of a double standard in prohibiting it in the sense that because there are at least a few who can have their elbow clear while the rest of their upper arm is on their body as a result of many years of preparing for a hard winter.  On Vancouver Is, I don't think any of the clubs enforce the elbow clear rule.

cheers Doug

[bgf]

The way I am built, if I stretch my arm out enough to comply with the "no arm contact with body" rule, I'll be holding far past the entry pipe !

[Daryl]

Well, there ya go.  Had one woman mention that rule was unfair as she couldn't hold under the lock and still clear her breasts. Well, most women and men can't clear their body with an under the lock hold, either.  

I suggested holding at the entry pipe - well, how about that - instant clearance. Them's the rules in some events - I didn't make them - if you cannot comply with the rules, don't shoot the event - pretty simple.

This is my stance for 200yard offhand shooting. The left arm forms as close to a 90 degree angle at the elbow as possible and still be comfortable. The elbow is directly beneath the forend. Due to the short forend, I am agle to hold the entry pipe, yet still clear my body and not stress L5S1 or L4S2- whatever the joint above L5S1 is, by having to lean backwards to suport the rifle's weight.  It's only a 9 1/2 pound rifle, so is easy to hold.

If you hunt and use the Swiss style of body lean for offhand shooting, you will lose you game from not practising hunting positions. I suggest that practising & learning to shoot from hunting postions is the best way to prepare for the hunt.

[Roger Fisher]

Ok, I'll stir the pot then hit the road for Muddy Run shoot... You will notice in the excellent photos that my 'elbow' is clear of my ol bod .

NMLRA Offhand Position rule 5610-    Standing on both feet, with no other portion of the body touching the ground or any other supporting surface. (Meaning a post, tree, bench wall etc etc???)  The rifle will be supported by both hands and one shoulder only. The rifle must lay in the palm of the forward hand..!  No mention of upper arm against chest.  Of course clubs can and do set their own rules (as it should be)

I volunteered to check on the women shooters 'locking in' several times over the years; but was never allowed.

[Daryl]

HA! - Roger,  I can just imagine you checking the women for body contact - hahahaha.

  Your chest contact would not have been allowed I'd expect, here where that rule is noted. Seems to me that the upper arm against the body was a support.  With a long trunk like you and I have, it is impossible to rest the elbow on a hip- which is the normal Swiss offhand postion.  Due to our body length, the upper arm tricept rests against the ribs. That is a support and one I can no longer accomplish, but is how I used to shoot offhand when I was a 24year old kid in the 70's.  If you or I pulled the elbow into our ribs, we'd be pointing the rifle at the ground 6 or 7feet in front of us.  Thus for us, it's a arm support, and for those of short body length, it's an elbow and arm support. No contest or base for dispute that I can see.

[Candle Snuffer]

This is about as close as I can get to holding a rifle without my upper arm touching my body.  I can't say that this was overly comfortable for me, so I went back to where my left arm is slid a bit more forward.  Since all of us are built different, I think one needs to experiment with what works best for them offhand.  If that should be the arm against the body and there are rules at the match about that, I agree with Daryl - don't shoot that one.

[Daryl]

Here's another 'close to the lock hold' that does not have any body support, just as Candlesnuffer's pic. above shows.  It is none other than our infamous LB.

[Vomitus]

 Yes,this is a light rifle and I "choke" up on her for that reason. It just seems to hang better this way. Heavier guns I find the sweet spot on the forend and hold accordingly,but always try to keep my forearm and left elbow perpendicular to the rifle. This takes the strain off your shoulder and uses your arms strongest muscle(biceps) to support the weight. Works for me.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

When hunting...its usually possible to lean against a tree.... the deer don't read the rule books

[bgf]

The only reference to the "no upper arm support" matches I've ever seen are the ones Daryl has made mention of.  I can see some "outlawing", or wanting to, the elbow on hip or elbow on ribs "full-tilt swiss position", as it is a rock solid position, but I am happy to allow it to those so constructed, even though the only way I could achieve either position would be under mechanical coercion, which would leave my body broken !  My point earlier was that even when I use a "normal" position even holding as far forward as the entry pipe, I still arguably have upper arm support on my chest (what used to be at least partly muscle), and to hold otherwise would require a comic book position with my arm almost straight out.  Anyway, I agree, I would either comply with the rules or if that were not possible, I would skip the match, but I wonder if the rule isn't a little silly as it it much more ambiguous and open to interpretation than even a rule like "offhand elbow cannot touch body" or something of the sort.  

I have heard people fuss about the swiss-style shooters many times, but often the people complaining are the ones that can't beat them !  To me, there is a big difference between mechanical and optical aids, both of which I consider cheating, and using one's physical makeup to its best advantage -- result of genetics and thoughtful training.  Outlawing hold styles seems to me like requiring skinny people to puncture a lung or hamstring one leg before I will engage in a foot race with them.

[Hank*in*WV]

Daryl, that has to be the perfect picture.

[Standing Bear]

I still remember the saying and take it to heart.

"Practice does not make perfect, PERFECT practice makes perfect".

Dry fire often even between shots at the range.  The shot and the practice are not completed if you don't follow through - especially in practice.  If a dry fire was not perfect, do it again.  Don't quit with a less than perfect practice.

TC

[Daryl]

Daryl, that has to be the perfect picture.

First or second?

The pic of LB was taken by a photographer who spent a couple days at Hefley Creek, taking pictures of the rendezvous, camps, people, etc.

[Hank*in*WV]

The second where the fire and smoke is coming out of the barrel and the ball of smoke out of the pan. Gotta love it.

[James]

I've got my new GPR barrel really shooting well and now I'm starting to "shoot off my hind legs". I'm all over the place!!! At one time in my life I was a lifetime master with the pistol and I'm trying to transfer that skill to this rifle and not doing well with it. I imagine that a lot of practice is called for and I love doing it anyhow but any tips from you guys and gals would be appreciated. FRJ

   My 2-cents. If you have been shooting from the bench and offhand is showing more misses than hits, you might try the sitting position for a bit. Your breath will be a factor as will trigger habits, but you will be on paper and learn to get everything right mechanically before moving to the least stable position.

[FRJ]

Well after reading all the comments I went out today and did some more practice and not letting my arms touch my body. The true off the hands shooting position. The basics are still the same though and trigger control and follow thru are still super important I've been shooting and hunting with a longbow for the last 20 odd years and am really enjoying getting back into the smokey stuff. I'm just shooting at  25 yards right now and feel pretty good hitting a 2" red dot fairly consistantly and not off by much when I don't hit it. I also just casted up 600 balls and have 10 # of Goex on the way so I'll have enough stuff for a couple months anyhow. Thanks to All and please wish me luck. FRJ

[Daryl]

Good luck, and keep at it. Nothing but good results can come from good practise.