Question regarding turning breech plugs with snails.

[Rolf]

I have been given an old emco compact 8 lathe. It came with a 110mm, 3-jaw self-centering chuck and a dead center. Rest of the tooling I have to buy myself. I'm a complete newbie at lathe work and have a few questions.

1.I want to do off-center turning to make breech plugs with snails. (Nobody has left-handed versions of what I want) I'm thinking of buying a 125mm ,4 jaw- independent chuck. I've been looking at chucks on the internet. How do I know if if chuck can be mounted on my lathe?

2.In general, how do I know which tooling fits my lathe? I've bougth a couple of books on mini-laths and none answer this question.

3Online metals has 1"x2"  cold rolled , 1018 barstock for sale. A 12" piece costs 16$. Is this material suitable for breechplugs ? I know there has been post warning against cold rolled steel used in drums.

4.I plan to buy:

 live-center
Tailstock chuck
4 jaw indepentent chuck
HSS set of turning chizels (8mm).

Anything I should put on the list?

Best regards
Rolf

[P.W.Berkuta]

You need to know the spindle diameter and the thread per inch of the spindle. First I would get a manual for the machine. It looks like a nice little machine and will do what you want if you can cut threads with it. As for tooling I would suggest this place - it will not run you broke and it has a lot of "stuff". http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRHM -- You don't want "turning chisels" you want HHS tool bits and probably in the size of 1/4 inch which you grind to the shape best for the type of "turning" (cutting) you are doing. Below are pictures of a left hand breach plug I made from cold rolled 1020 - it worked well as would 1018 - go for it.

[Keb]

Rather than buying a probably very expensive 4 jaw chuck you could just make some off set jigs to hold your stock so you could turn them. I'm prolly not clear on this without pictures. :/

I'd guess the tail stock has a #2 Morris taper. You can find many drill chucks that are that taper. It's pretty standard.


I'm not seeing a tool bit holder either.

[Buffaload]

Keb,
Personally, i wouldn't be without a 4 jaw.  Cheapest and most useful chuck you can have.
I have a 3 lathes in the shop, 12.5" Cincinnati, 14" Zubal and a 9" gap bed Southbend.  i must say for everything but barrel work the 9" is most convenient to use.
The more you become familiar with that little guy, the more uses you will find, many outside of gun work.
Since you are in the learning mode, I would look up a fellow that goes by Tubal Cain on youtube.  His instructional videos are very good.  In addition, pick up a cheap copy of the little book called "how to run a lathe" by Southbend lathe.  There is also a home shop machinist site on www.chaski.org that can be very helpful.
 I wouldn't use 1018 for plugs I would go with 8620.
I get some $#@* for using machine tools to build my locks and barrels but since indentured servants have fallen out of vogue, whats a man to do?

Cheers,
Ed

[Buffaload]

Oh, a couple of safety notes:

Never, and i mean never leave the key in the chuck.  Make it a practice to never take your hand off the key.  Tighten an pull the key out, never take your hand off of it.
Some folks like to polish or file in the lathe.  its done every day but its probably the most dangerous thing you can do in a lathe.  if you get the file in the chuck, you may end up at the hospital.  Don't be fooled by the size of that lathe, it can still kill you given the opportunity.
No loose clothes or long hair.  Short sleeves for me and if you have long hair, tie it up.
I don't mean to insult your intelligence, but i saw an experienced navy machinist loose a finger in a 20 inch leblond lathe by sticking emery cloth in his finger and polishing some internal threads he had just cut.  Twisted his trigger finger right off, pretty as you please.
Regards,
Ed

[Acer Saccharum]

On a lathe that size, the jaws of the four jaw chuck may not be tall enough to grasp your breechplug.

Sometimes a FACEPLATE with a special fixture mounted to it will do a much better(and safer) job of holding the work. The work needs to be balanced, so consider that you might need to add counterweights.

I am going to guess that your chucks mount by a threaded spindle nose. You should be able to search that make and model on the web for a parts drawing.

A forum that does modelmaking and machining might be just the place for answers. Like a live steam or small engine forum.

Tom

[Buffaload]

Try here:
www.lathes.co.uk
enjoy,
Ed

[Bob Roller]

Machine tools for locks or anything else. If you have them USE them. All of my indentured servants escaped years ago.

Bob Roller

[Buffaload]

I hear you Bob,
When people say "how many children do you have" i tell them, i don't have children, i have employees.
Ed

[Keb]

Buffaload, I ran a lathe for years making machine parts. Most of the parts had offset journals. I never used a 4 jaw. Never. It was just way faster and just as accurate to make a fixture to hold the stock for cutting an offset than to indicate it in. I guess it would be a different story where time doesn't equal money.

[Buffaload]

I dont disagree with you but It appears this is the only "machine tool" he has.  if he had a mill and other goodies, accurate jigs are easy to make up.  Without those tools, a 4 jaw would still be my choice.
Ed

[Bob Roller]

Most of the things we make for muzzle loaders are one of a kind. I have made three bolster breeches in the 27 years since Bill Large died and used a four jaw chuck on all three of them.
I used 8620 on two of them and 1018 on the little one which was a 13/16 forty caliber that was shown here a few days ago as a boy's rifle.
Bill Large had no special tooling for these and made a lot of them and later on used the tangs from the Hawken Shop for the hooked breech types. He also used their entire cast breech plugs as well. They were X-rayed and any flawed ones were sent back to be remelted.
Don Brown did this also on the Alex Henry breech plugs because some of these were used on .451 caliber bullet rifles that used 90 or more grains of powder to goose a 500+grain bullet out to 1000 yards or more. I just got an E mail from Rod England who now owns the tooling that Brown used and is now making the breech plug again. He is also using Rice barrels made from 4140 and I am assuming that the rifling will be as close to the original Henry style as possible. Good show I say!

Bob Roller

[Buffaload]

Thats good news Bob,
An English rifle is in my future, I can feel it.

Not to beat a dead horse on this 4 jaw thing but dont forget that you can indicate a piece in on a 4 jaw and get it dead nuts concentric, no 3 jaw can do that(unless its a very expensive adjust-tru Buck chuck).  This fact is really important when you are working on repair work.  I wouldnt be without a 3 jaw but if i had only one chuck, it would be the 4 jaw.

Bob, do you know of anyone casting over and under rifle breeches?  I have handled a over and under Mills rifle that was really sweet, and i would love to take a crack at that one.  Charlie Hunt used to build some unreal shotguns, one I handled was an over and under, of course Charlie made everything himself.  What a loss to the muzzleloading community.

Regards,
Ed

[T*O*F]

Rod England who now owns the tooling that Brown used and is now making the breech plug again. He is also using Rice barrels made from 4140 and I am assuming that the rifling will be as close to the original Henry style as possible

OK Bob,
Some questions if you know!!  Rod was having Ernie from Badger make his barrels.  Did that deal fall thru?

You do realize that Don also offered his components with an octagon barrel in a sporting rifle, round ball configuration.  Are the barrels that Rice is making for the long range rifle or the sporting rifle?

[Rolf]

Would 12L14 be safe for breech plugs? They use it to make barrels.

Best regards
Rolf

[Acer Saccharum]

A four jaw for a lathe that size will extend 1" from the chuck face, if you're lucky. And the thru hole may be 1 1/4", if you're lucky. A small chuck does not have capacity for larger work to be held securely, extended out from the jaws.

My concern is for holding the work securely, and chancing the piece popping out of the jaws.

[Bob Roller]

I don't know about the deal Rod had with Badger other than the possibility he did have one. I think Rice is closer in distance to Rod.
Yes,I knew Don offered octagon barrels with his kits for ball or bullets. He would sell a handful of screws or a complete rifle plus anything in between. I got the last useable butt plate he had,ordered it from Don but paid his widow. Also got one of the last finished breech plugs he had. He would use my locks only if he had to and when I offered him a 4 screw style on his own plate as an option,he said he would like one for his own rifle but didn't want to offer them to customer. I still think it is odd to use a $40 lock on such a rifle as he made when a correct type was available. I have told Rod that more than likely,my locks would not be wanted but at least he is willing to offer them. 
 If I wasn't writing this note,I would be in the shop finishing a mainspring for a 4 screw Rigby style lock.
In Canada at a shoot in 1987,the German team captain ordered 3 kits and insisted on my locks which seemed to upset Don but he needed the work and agreed to buy 3 from me.
I sent them COD and got an irate call from him for doing that. At that time I was heavy into classic car parts and transmission bushings and in that game,EVERYthing comes and goes COD no matter what or to who it was going to.   
A man from Sweden bought a round ball gun from him at that same shoot and I have a picture of that gun taken by Diana Germane(Germain?)showing me,Don,Ted Girodat,Roger Weir and Terry Savage. Only Roger and I are still alive now.

Bob Roller

[Rolf]

I agree safety is the top priority. One way to reduce weight would be to machine the rod to the smallest possible rectangular blank.
I measured the Le Paige breeches I bought from Blackley.
To make something similar I'd need a rectangle that is  35mm x 22mm x 45mm = 34.65cm²
Steel weighs about 8grams/cm². The blank would weigh 277grams = 0.61 lb = 9.77oz
I've finished maching the cast blanks from blackley. The finished breech plugs weigh 80grams = 0.176lb = 2.82oz.

How do I find out the maximum safe size I can turn in my lathe?

Best regards
Rolf

[JTR]

Rolf,
Here's a link to some parts on ebay, including a 4 jaw chuck.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=emco+compact+8+lathe&_sacat=&_ex_kw=&_mPrRngCbx=1&_udlo=&_udhi=&_sop=12&_fpos=&_fspt=1&_sadis=&LH_CAds=

A friend of mine had one of these machines years ago, and it was surprisingly accurate, if used carefully.
John

[Acer Saccharum]

How do I find out the maximum safe size I can turn in my lathe?

That's a very hard thing to determine ahead of time unless someone here has experience with that machine.

Small machines do not have much weight, and also lack rigidity. The Emco is one of the better small lathes. You can accomplish a lot on a small machine by light cuts and reasonable feeds.  But how big of a part can you safely turn? Duh, I don't know. You will probably stall the machine before damaging anything.

Just turn slow. The part will fall out if not held well enough. If you turn too fast, the danger is to fling the part across the room.

So with lathe work, my suggestion is to start slow, proceed with caution, and listen and watch while working. You can play music while running a lathe. Your attention needs to be on the machine and its happy (or sad) noises.

[Buffaload]

You can safely turn what you can fit in it.  Clearance over the ways, saddle and compound will limit you.
Castings with rough irregular surfaces can be dicey.  When turning large diameters, just watch for clearance issues, with the part and the chuck jaws.
Normally, I thread using the tailstock, even on shorter pieces because I can hold size better.
Cut off tools can be dangerous. 
Go slow, sharp tools, correctly ground and on center, and have fun.  you will build confidence and learn your machine. 

Enjoy,
Ed

[JTR]

Just turn slow is good advise, but you don't want to go too slow either.

On your machine with what your planning to do, I'd start at the 350 speed for turning/cutting. Also, if you can position the live center in the tailstock into the piece your turning, it will hold the piece in the jaws much better, and with more piece of mind regarding the piece flying out of the jaws. Sometimes the piece your cutting will  generate vibrations at some speeds, so if while cutting, the piece is chattering and squealing loudly, try changing the speed to one step faster, or one step slower.

If you're going to do the threading on this machine, its helpful to run it a one of the slowest speeds while you learn how to do it.

Keep the cutting edge of your tool right on the center line of the piece your cutting.

Like others have said, watch your fingers, loose clothing, long sleeves, and wear safety glasses. Remember the ribbons of cut steel are unbelievable sharps and will cut you unbelievably fast!

John