Author Topic: Identifiation Help/John Bivins/Frank Burton Flint/Now with pictures  (Read 14553 times)

twines

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I appreciate all the responses I received on this flint.  It seems to have been created by John Bivins and Frank Burton.  The pictures are now available.  I would like any information you may have about this gun.  Plus I am looking for recommendations on a competent appraiser in Maryland, Northern VA, or the Panhandle of WV.  

Thanks Tom

http://tomsflint.shutterfly.com/22
« Last Edit: September 05, 2010, 04:17:05 PM by twines »

Offline Bart

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Re: Identifiation Help/John Bivins/Frank Burton Flint/Now with pictures
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2010, 06:03:43 PM »
Have you considered Brian Lemaster ? he is very knowledgeable. You can Google him and get the number he is located in Highview West Virginia.

twines

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Re: Identifiation Help/John Bivins/Frank Burton Flint/Now with pictures
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2010, 05:09:45 PM »
Thanks,  I've been in touch with him.  His location is very good for me.

Offline G-Man

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Re: Identifiation Help/John Bivins/Frank Burton Flint/Now with pictures
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2010, 07:56:10 PM »
That is an exquisite rifle.  Very fine work. North Carolina rifles are something that not many contemporary builders take on.  Yours is one of the nicest I've seen, and by one of the best.

Thanks for sharing it with us.

Guy

twines

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Re: Identifiation Help/John Bivins/Frank Burton Flint/Now with pictures
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2010, 09:14:37 PM »
Thanks

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Identifiation Help/John Bivins/Frank Burton Flint/Now with pictures
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2010, 12:02:23 AM »
Nice seeing your rifle.  What I find most interesting is seeing the work of Bivins at the point in his career when this rifle was built.  It's a fine rifle no doubt, but there are aspects with the carving in particular that are a little less refined that what we typically associate with his later work.  You can still, however, see his talent and ability showing through even in this early work.

wrkber

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Re: Identifiation Help/John Bivins/Frank Burton Flint/Now with pictures
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2010, 07:41:45 PM »
I wish I could help with the identification of John's rifles.  As a teenager in the 70s, I babysat for John's two boys.  When John started making long rifles a few years before the Bicentennial, he hired me to do piecework for him as well, pouring the wax waste molds for the brass fittings for his longrifles.  It was a great experience to get to work with a master craftsmas at such an early age.  John was, in my mind, the epitome of a Renaissance man, and he helped me develop many interests during this time.

twines

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Re: Identifiation Help/John Bivins/Frank Burton Flint/Now with pictures
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2010, 01:36:10 AM »
That is a very good story.  Thanks for sharing.

stancarlson62

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Re: Identifiation Help/John Bivins/Frank Burton Flint/Now with pictures
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2010, 12:59:26 AM »
i dont know who made that rifle but is sure is amazing the patchbox is like nothing ive ever seen,the carving also amazing, thanks for showing it

Offline Clowdis

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Re: Identifiation Help/John Bivins/Frank Burton Flint/Now with pictures
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2010, 05:53:18 AM »
Just a swag but I'd say that the rifle was probably built by Frank and finished by John including the carving. I think they did a little of that in John's early career. That's a lot of remembering for me but I think I'm correct. Didn't Frank retire to the coast pretty quick after John started working, maybe mid 70's?

twines

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Re: Identifiation Help/John Bivins/Frank Burton Flint/Now with pictures
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2010, 05:51:21 PM »
That really confirms all the things I have found about the gun.  Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Offline Clowdis

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Re: Identifiation Help/John Bivins/Frank Burton Flint/Now with pictures
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2010, 04:26:04 PM »
You're welcome. I had the opportunity to do the same thing with Lew Sanchez about the same time. Lew and John were good friends and Lew just wanted to carve, engrave, and finish the rifles. I wish I had taken him up on the offer but alas, I did not.

Offline Hurricane ( of Virginia)

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Re: Identifiation Help/John Bivins/Frank Burton Flint/Now with pictures
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2010, 04:55:04 PM »
Wallace Gusler in Williamsburg may be able to help you. A note contemporary builder and historical expert. Alos Gary Brumfield in Williamburg has the same credentials. Both were gunsmith in Colonial Williamsburg gun shop for years.

Offline D. Buck Stopshere

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Re: Identifiation Help/John Bivins/Frank Burton Flint/Now with pictures
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2011, 04:04:21 AM »
When I arrived in Fayetteville, NC in September of '70, courtesy of "Uncle Sam", I asked around for a muzzleloading gun club, and was pointed to the Fayetteville Arsenal Muzzle Loading Gun Club. There, I met up with Lew Sanchez. I was assigned to the Special Forces HQ, and Lew was the Property Book Officer for the 82nd Airborne Division.

We got "wind" of a gunmaker operating a gunmaker's shop in the Cardinal Shopping Center in Winston-Salem, NC, and paid Frank Burton a visit. We came away from there having each of us purchasing a flint longrifle in one of the Penn. styles for $ 350.00. Mr. Burton favored the Lancaster School patterns from Joe Kindig’s book, “Thoughts on The Ky Rifle in the Golden Age”.

Frank introduced us to his resident engraver, Jack Spain, whose work "bit" Lew badly. Lew went home to order engraving tools from Frank Mittermeir out of NY. Frank then introduced lew later to a gunsmith working out of, as I recall, the second oldest house in Old Salem. The gunsmith was John Bivins. That was the beginning of a lasting relationship.

There were three gunsmiths in the Winston-Salem region, Frank, John, and Bob Hunt, "The Salem Riflesmith".
Bob used to teach muzzleloading gunmaking at the Technical College, and sold parts to build a muzzleloader.

John Bivins, like Lew Sanchez, like to have an "apprentice" stock the rifle, and then he would devote his time to the creativity of the rifle's artform.

For some of the best B & W photos of masterful execution of wood, steel, German silver, and brass, the book to secure is "Contemporary Makers of Muzzle Loading Firearms", by Robert Weil; copyright 1980, printed by Taylor Publishing Co., Dallas, TX. I believe Track of the Wolf reprinted it. Don't know if it is still available. Great book for detail. Outstanding photography.

Hope this helps,

Buck Buchanan
Fayetteville, NC

Field Rep-NC
NMLRA




« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 05:35:12 AM by D. Buck Stopshere »
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.

NMLRA Field Rep- North Carolina

pooster

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Re: Identifiation Help/John Bivins/Frank Burton Flint/Now with pictures
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2013, 06:57:36 PM »
I created a Kentucky rifle in Frank's shop when I was 17 years old. He was a very helpful man and gave me free use of his tools/shop and taught me a lot about rifle making. It was 1977 and he was using curly maple/tiger maple from a stock that he purchased from Sitting Bulls grandson! My rifle was made from that stock. By the way, if anyone finds a rifle with "W. Craig" engraved on the barrel, it is the one I built. Not real pretty, but sentimental value. I gave it to my parents as a cabin warming gift to celebrate their new log cabin. They sold it years later without offering it to me. I guess they were not much on sentimental value, just $$$. Frank would build a rifle a week when I was working with him. It was fun and inspiring to watch him.

pooster

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Re: Identifiation Help/John Bivins/Frank Burton Flint/Now with pictures
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2013, 06:59:00 PM »
My the way, Frank was the curator at the Pawley's Island Hammock Shoppes when I met him. That was in SC. His home and rifle shop were in Litchfield, a few miles up hwy 17.

Offline Don Getz

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Re: Identifiation Help/John Bivins/Frank Burton Flint/Now with pictures
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2013, 04:36:11 AM »
I first met John in the fall of 1977.   We, my brother Dick and I, purchased the Paris Barrel Company in the spring of 1977.
After spending a month in the Paris shop, where they showed us how to run the equipment, we moved the equipment to our
present location in Beavertown.   We made our first barrel in that shop in June of 1977.  I can remember getting a phone call
from John, we discussed our continuation of the contract to make those Bicentennial barrels which he made with the Paris', and of  course we did that.  In the fall of 1977 John along with Bob Roberts, the photographer, Lew Sanchez, and Mark Silver
came up to Beavertown and stayed for three days, taking pictures and talking.  John then did a story on our business for
rifle magazine.  What an experience.  Lew spent three days trying to get an old leather sewing machine to work, didn't happen.
To become friends with this group was priceless.  I can recall how Lew would give me a big hug when we would meet every year at Friendship.  I can recall how we worked with John to get that damascus barrel made for his fantastic wheelock.  After
milling it and then reamed and rifled, we fit a plug to take a piece of fuse.   We then traveled down to a local stone quarry.
We put a fairly heavy load in it, lit the fuse, and waited for the explosion.  After the boom, John rushed up and, after seeing
that it was still in one piece, let out a mighty "Rebel"  yell.  You fellows that knew John well, would know how out of character
this was. I could go on, but..............Don

Offline EC121

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Re: Identifiation Help/John Bivins/Frank Burton Flint/Now with pictures
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2013, 03:26:10 PM »
Interesting history.  It gives me a sort of timeline for my rifle.  I have a Bivins rifle that shares a lot with this rifle but not as ornate.  Similar style patchbox piercings and barrel pin escutcheons.  Has incised carving.  Single silver "IB" cartouche.  Straight 7/8" barrel.  According to the original owner it was purchased in 1972.  Vogler style Carolina rifle.  Does anyone know the brand of locks he used back then?  Mine looks like a Siler, but the orig. owner said  it wasn't. 
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 03:32:35 PM by EC121 »
Brice Stultz

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Identifiation Help/John Bivins/Frank Burton Flint/Now with pictures
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2013, 05:34:58 PM »
There was lock similar to the Siler that was offered by a man whose name was
Mack?Vance. I have no idea as to what happened to it but remember seeing him and
some locks at Friendship years ago. I think he told me he made his REAL living by
calculating weights and balances on heavy aircraft freight/passenger loadings.

Bob Roller

Offline Don Getz

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Re: Identifiation Help/John Bivins/Frank Burton Flint/Now with pictures
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2013, 07:27:24 AM »
Bob........I think the lock that Mack Vance made was bought by the L & R group, could be wrong there.   One thing I could
never understand, why would you spend all of your time and money to re-invent a siler lock?.......Don

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Identifiation Help/John Bivins/Frank Burton Flint/Now with pictures
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2013, 06:49:51 PM »
Don,
I never did know what became of Mack Vance or that lock.
You may be right about the first owners of L&R buying the
tooling for it.
I've never tried to make the early Germanic locks because the
market is so WELL covered and now as I lurch into my olden
years,I need one more project like a pig needs a sun bonnet.
Enjoy the coming Winter.

Bob Roller

Offline Don Getz

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Re: Identifiation Help/John Bivins/Frank Burton Flint/Now with pictures
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2013, 06:18:06 AM »
I doubt that the gun had a Vance lock on it.    I first met Mack at Friendship in the 80's,  he showed me what he was doing
and it somewhat resembled a Siler, even then I thought why try to reinvent the siler.....Don