Author Topic: Learn to braize  (Read 4200 times)

Offline Eric Smith

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Learn to braize
« on: May 26, 2012, 02:10:24 AM »
I have read quite a lot of posts on here about building longrifles, and one thing that keeps rearing its ugly head is the possible need to learn to "braize" parts together. Visited my local Lowes and found Mapp gas setup and such. Didn't buy anything just looking. Any advice one learning to braize and what to buy. I never even soldered before, but I think this will come in handy someday. I have done some research on YouTube. What say you about getting started.?
Eric Smith

Dave Dolliver

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Re: Learn to braize
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2012, 02:48:29 AM »
Go to your local Junior/Community 2 year colledge and enroll in a course for Acetylene Torch welding.  It will include torch selection and use will include brazing as well as welding. That's what I did.

Dave Dolliver

docone

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Re: Learn to braize
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2012, 04:07:41 AM »
Here is a good torch.
http://www.bernzomatic.com/PRODUCTS/TORCHES/PROFESSIONALTORCHES/tabid/230/ctl/Detail/mid/1009/xmid/6940/xmfid/3/Default.aspx
I find the Mapp torches to be too little for brazing. Real small stuff, yeah, but not Buttplate, etc. You need BTUs. I also use a 2 X 6 for backflame. You can braze without a backflame, but you will struggle.
I snip the rod stock into small pieces. These I use a pencil to transfer to the work. The wood burns away, the graphite transfers the piece and the carbon soaks the O2. It is simpler to learn with snippets, than with rod stock.
I started on copper stock to practice. Small pieces of copper pipe, flat stock, etc. I started by melting the copper. Melting my first piece was exciting to me! I loved it. However, if you can melt it, you can control the melt. You do not want to melt the piece during brazing.
You are exciting the molecules during the heating. The metal opens up into capillary openings. The braze stock flows into these microscopic openings. As the piece cools, the capillary openings shrink back into the original shape, the braze rod is trapped in the piece. With two pieces, both open capillary openings, and the rod stock flows between both pieces. As the piece cools, both pieces shrink back to size, trapping the melt in both of them. This is a very strong joint. It can be shaped, is resistant to movement. Brazing is not fusing. Fusing, both parts flow together.
You need flux.
20 Mule Team Borax is great flux. So is Cockroach killer. That is Boric Acid. Mix them both together with alcohol. This makes a paste that gets wiped on the joint prior to heating. Light the joint. It will burn green then go out. Then heat the joint. The flux will turn white, grow, then liquify. At this point, add a snippet. When it flows, keep the heat on and add another snippet. Now you are making a joint. When you remove the heat, the rod stock, or snippet, will harden. Now pickle it.
It is actually fun. I love watching the metal flow.
Melt copper. Brass stock will fume. Save that material for when you are more accomplished with simple brazing. Keep the complexities out of the mix.
Braze copper, control the braze. See how much you need for how long a joint.
You will melt lots at first. Save the good stuff for when you are comfortable with this. Melt scraps. Braze scraps, play around with them.
You can also use the Borax to put out the charcoal under the piece. It will smoke and you will get burning. Not as much as you might think, but it will happen.
That is how I learned. I taught myself. I probably made more messes than successes back then. It was frustrating!
No one helped, or even knew what I was talking about. Read up on it, look on U-Tube for videos. People here will pipe in. These guys know their stuff! That is for sure. I have a lot of respect for their work.
Batterns makes good self picling flux.
Once you start heating, keep the heat on untill you have flowed the snippet. Either pickle, or use more Batterns.
Flux or it will not flow. No excepetions here. No flux, no flow.
So, burn pieces, melt them, heat them, watch the Braze rod flow.
It really is simple, even though it does not seem so. Most of all, heat hurts! Heat starts fires!
Have something on hand to pick up the piece when it is hot. It always happens. You heat a piece and you need to move it.
Please be careful, especially learning. Hoses melt, if you keep the tank attached to the torch when not in use, it will be empty when you need it. Remove the regulator from the tank. If you can watch someone, you will have a fast start on brazing. Make sure you can put out any fire that starts where you do not want it. Oh, and it will burn skin! No bare feet! I do not use gloves, but I use long handle tools. When I cast, I have a table top that is 2500* tile, with the vaccum caster on fire brick.
Good luck.
Take it slow, make it safe! You will braze another  day.

Offline Eric Smith

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Re: Learn to braize
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2012, 02:26:40 PM »
"Braze"
Eric Smith

Offline LRB

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Re: Learn to braize
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2012, 03:16:13 PM »
  Uhhh, Docone, your explaination of how brazing bonds metals is not really quite correct.  Anyone interested can go here and get a little better understanding of how it works, although learning to make it work is of much more importance.

http://www.desperadocycles.com/The_Lowdown_On_Tubing/The_Metalurgy_Of_Brazing_Part_1.pdf

Offline JTR

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Re: Learn to braize
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2012, 08:50:10 PM »
The JC course Dave recommended would be great if you have a semester to learn. If not, maybe try an hours time in a welding shop for some basic instruction.
Brazing is actually pretty easy (brass filler rod to steel, brass rod to brass, etc) and is the same basic technique as welding steel to steel with a steel filler rod. Looking over a guys shoulder with some dark glasses on will show you the technique quickly and easily, plus you could no doubt give it a try under the guys watchful eye.

But, you're going to need a oxygen/ acetylene outfit to do anything other than the thinest of projects with Mapp gas or similar. You might luck into a good used oxy/acet outfit for $75/125, or go with a new outfit for about $200 or so. Either way, it's not dirt cheap to get into but can save you a lot of time and money in the long run.

With a small oxy/acet set, you can weld steel, braze with brass rod to whatever, silver solder, heat metal to bend it etc, heat metal to temper it, catch your workbench, shoes, pants or shirt on fire, and many other worthwhile jobs!

John

John
« Last Edit: May 27, 2012, 03:19:41 AM by JTR »
John Robbins

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Learn to braize
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2012, 08:01:39 AM »
I have read quite a lot of posts on here about building longrifles, and one thing that keeps rearing its ugly head is the possible need to learn to "braize" parts together. Visited my local Lowes and found Mapp gas setup and such. Didn't buy anything just looking. Any advice one learning to braize and what to buy. I never even soldered before, but I think this will come in handy someday. I have done some research on YouTube. What say you about getting started.?

Get a small welding/cutting torch set rent the bottles of gas and go for it. Its impossible to do things without the necessary tools.
Brazing is really no more difficult than silver soldering, the temp is just a lot higher.

I started brazing in a forge making buttplates as John Baird described in his "Hawken Rifles" and MB articles.
If a 18 year old kid with a coal forge, some brass scrap and borax and NO training can do it anyone should be able too.
Just get a decent torch and try it. Its certainly not rocket science.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Eric Smith

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Re: Learn to braize
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2012, 08:28:48 AM »
Dan, I have no need to braze anything right now, but I can certainly see the need from reading through the archives. I don't want to wait till I have the need to braze, so I'm investigating it and logging what I find into a PC file. You are right about equipment. I am going to start looking for some as soon as I am sure I know what I'm looking at. ;D
Eric Smith