Sideplate panel transition

[David R. Pennington]

Any advice on how to get the proper transition at breach of barrel on sideplate side. The lock side sort of takes care of itself but I'm not exactly sure where to go on the sideplate side. Behind the breach I have it angled down to side panels and there is that flat area alongside the barrel just ahead of the breach above the sideplate. I don't have access to any originals and have looked at photos but can't get a 3D picture in my mind how it should look.

[Lucky R A]

    Dave,  There are a variety of treatments and these are school and maker specific # 1,  Is the most often seen slightly convex treatment  from the tang to the top of the sideplate molding,   This leaves a straight drop off to the breech of the barrel, not the most artistic treatment but frequently used.  #2,  Would be the same with straight drop off eliminated by angling the wood down to the breech of the barrel.  The angle usually extends back 1/2-3/4 inch" and is more pleasing to the eye. This angle can be convex or concave.   The third is the drop off from the tang to the sideplate is concave and is carried forward to intersect with the barrel on much the same level as the barrel.  I hope this makes sense. I am sure others will come up with variations of these three basic treatments, but that is about it.  Originals rarely left much wood proud behind the breech end of the barrel

[Acer Saccharum]

Here's a contemporary:


An original Messersmith 1792 contract rifle:


A contemporary jaeger:


An original, and a copy in progress:

[Bernard]

The area form the tang to the side plate should First be filed flat. You can reduce the thickness of the side plate (thickness of the material between the barrel channel and the surface of the side plate), this allows you to angle the flat between the tang and top of the side plate a bit more getting it to more closely follow the angle of the oblique flat of the barrel. Once this has been done file out a bit of wood in a concave manner to bring the stock down close to the barrel. This concave filing should be angled back along the flat over about 1/4 to 5/16 inch. Tat will look after the breach to top of the wrist transition. The flat area that runs along the side of the barrel on top of the side plate will now be reduced in thickness and less noticeable. Round out the transition between the vertical portion and the horizontal portion and then bevel the flat section down slightly from the barrel to the side plate. This section should now be no more than 1/4 wide and blend in with the rest of the rifle. Hope this is clear enough and helps.   

[Dave B]

Here are some additional photos of transitions on originals





The white lines are tape strips cut to help identify the subtle contours of the area

[Acer Saccharum]

Dave B, that is supremely brilliant, to use the white strips to indicate the contours!

This gun is an anomaly, because the roundness of the wrist continues all the way along the tang, and rounded over at the breech.



This is a very important discussion, because the wrist/lock/breech area is what defines the gun. You can often tell the 'school', the culture, the age of the gun by its breech area alone.

Lock placement from another thread:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=21983.msg209625#msg209625

Make the decision of lockplate position BEFORE you inlet the bolster.

You don't have a lot of room for positioning now. what you have left is rotating the lock around the touch hole, which may not seem like a lot.

This is a visual decision, and the lock position is in relation to all the surrounding environment of the wrist and forestock areas. These areas MUST be considered when planning your lock placement.

Is the hump behind the barrel going to stay at the present contour? Or will you refine that curve more?

To me, that feature is one of the first decisions that has to be made before the lock is positioned. Get that top line established between breech and comb. This sets the stage for lock placement.

The next most glaring area is the grip. It is still in the square. Will you be taking that profile down at all? If so, THAT has an effect on placement. But lock placement can determine how much wood there is under the bottom line of the grip.

You are talking only a few degrees of rotation Clockwise or counter-clockwise around the touchhole. But get those two areas affixed in your mind's eye BEFORE you place the lock.

I know this is not an answer, but it may open up a conversation that will lead you to your conclusion.

[smart dog]

Hi Dave,
The advice and photos offered by the other posters should give you great guidance.  One additional bit of info is that lock panels that are parallel with the side flats of a swamped barrel will flare at the wrist.  That flare can affect how you are able to conform the stock to the shape of the barrel.  The wider the flare, the more difficult it is to curve the stock down to meet the barrel.  A trick used by many English makers was to keep the lock panels parallel with each other rather than with the barrel.  Thus, the wood along the barrel actually thinned a little toward the breech rather than stay a constant thickness.  By doing that, it is easier to shape the wood at the breech to conform with the top flats of the barrel and make give the sideplate panel a nice curved shape around the rear lock bolt.

dave 

[Jim Kibler]

That's a good point, Dave.  With the large breeches often used on English guns, the wrist width could end up being pretty wide without this treatment.  I've noticed this shaping on several English fowling pieces I've had a chance to study.  This is an example of how things aren't always as you would expect them.  Reasons why to study original pieces closely whenever possible.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

This is a very good point. The thickness of the sidepanel and whether it is parallel to the bore ...or the barrel surface... depends on the gun and its region of origin that you are building. There is a great deal of variance among originals ... The same is true for the treatment of the wood between the tang and the top of the sidepanel..... there is no one right way......Oh I know that messes with some people's minds!!

[rich pierce]

Dave B, is that walnut stocked original a European piece?  Any more info on it?

[JDK]

..... there is no one right way......

Can we argee though that there many ways to do it wrong?

Enjoy, J.D.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

No doubt J.D.!!  "The one true way"  just begs for contradiction.....HHhhhmmmmm??  And proves the point............Oh  it must be nearly time for beer!!

[Acer Saccharum]

I am always amazed at the variation in design, from one culture to another. It's truly wonderful.

As Rich said, it is so important to look at originals as much as possible, whenever they are available. I find when I am focused on breech design, that is what I see, and often miss much of the other details. Then I have to go back! 

I'm the kind of guy who eats all the peas on the plate, then move to the mashed potatoes, then to the steak. One thing at a time. 

[Acer Saccharum]

Looiking at the image just above, it reminds me that that main lockbolt location figures very strongly in the shape of the side panel. Try to place it as far away from the breech as you can, and as low as possible. This location is limited by the available real estate on the lock to put a bolt. Most importantly by the touchhole location, that farther back the hole is, the better placement for the bolt, and subsequent design of your offside panel.

So much stuff to remember, that I always forget something.

[Acer Saccharum]

A very nice treatment, but not seen in American work.

[Randy Hedden]

  A trick used by many English makers was to keep the lock panels parallel with each other rather than with the barrel.  Thus, the wood along the barrel actually thinned a little toward the breech rather than stay a constant thickness.  By doing that, it is easier to shape the wood at the breech to conform with the top flats of the barrel and make give the sideplate panel a nice curved shape around the rear lock bolt.

dave 

If someone were to do that today, with the current choice of locks available,they would have to file a corresponding angle on the lock bolster to make the bolster lay against the taper of the barrel and still be parallel to the lock panels.
Taking the lock bolster down to much might just cause interference between the lock internal parts and the barrel. 

Randy Hedden

[David R. Pennington]

Appreciate all the input, especially the good photos. That helps a lot. You don't see many pics in the books or magazines from those angles. Thanks.

[Pete G.]

  A trick used by many English makers was to keep the lock panels parallel with each other rather than with the barrel.  Thus, the wood along the barrel actually thinned a little toward the breech rather than stay a constant thickness.  By doing that, it is easier to shape the wood at the breech to conform with the top flats of the barrel and make give the sideplate panel a nice curved shape around the rear lock bolt.

dave 

If someone were to do that today, with the current choice of locks available,they would have to file a corresponding angle on the lock bolster to make the bolster lay against the taper of the barrel and still be parallel to the lock panels.
Taking the lock bolster down to much might just cause interference between the lock internal parts and the barrel. 

Randy Hedden

The solution is to keep the lock panel parallel to the barrel flat and the sideplate panel parallel to the bore.
Also keep in mind that many originals have a sideplate panel thinner than the lock panel.

[whitebear]

Alexanders book " Recreating the American Longrifle" covers this subject very well.

[Bernard]

I always make my lock plate and side plate parallel to the bore. On a swamped or tapered barrel this will necessitate a modification of the bolster on the lock suit can be properly inletted and positioned. To make the modification of the bolster start by measuring its length, say 1.5 inches, then measure the barrel diameter at the point where the rear of the bolster will rest, say .990 inches. Then measure the diameter of the barrel at the point where the front of the bolster will rest, about 1.5 inches ahead of the rear point of measure. Say that forward diameter measures .974 inches. The difference is .016. Divide this value by 2 to get (in this case) .008. Now install the lock in the vise on the milling machine and make a cut starting at .000 at the front of the bolster to a depth of .008 at the rear. Install the frizzenn and using a stone or diamond hone bring the overhanging rear point of the pan cover down to match the bolster. Now you can fit your lock to the barrel and it will be evenly inletted into a lock panel that is parallel to the bore with all the advantages that brings to the architecture.
 Acer makes a good point about placement of the lock bolt and you can get the head of this a bit lower by angling it a bit by lowering the entry point on the side plate side 1/16th to 3/32 will make a significant difference. 

[Dave B]

Rich, That is a good question. It looks like it could be American but I suspect it is European I am toying with sending in a sample to have this verified. There are no marks on the barrel or lock. The conversion to percussion looks like a Contenental solution vs American however.

[rich pierce]

The lock panel molding treatment reminds me of some Hudson Valley fowling pieces.  I agree, the conversion looks European.

[bob hertrich]

Acer, Is that tang carving you show in your first post used on a Lancaster rifle. I am building a Dickert and am finding it difficult to get a good view of a Fleur de lis type carving

[Acer Saccharum]

Bob, I made that up. You can make your own up, or follow original examples. Maybe start a thread for tang carvings?

[bob hertrich]

That would be a great thread.