is it just me, can loading be that sensitive?

[plastikosmd]

I am the only bench bp shooter I know, never been to a match and all of my bp knowledge comes from sites like this.  I had been shooting one of my older pistols for a bit, getting away from the rifles until my new rest is made.  I generally wipe between shots as it seems to work for me.  I picked up a bad habit from the pistol and had to figure out what was going on.  I tried a too damp patch once and got a failure to ignite as my powder got wet.  (I find not drying after a moist wipe works best in my rifles, I translated this to my pistol.)  Anyway, back to the rifles this weekend and I was getting burn through of my teflon patches . I had gone up to 180g of FFg so I figured it was too hot.  170 was fine earlier.  Back down and got burn through, back to 140g and same!!!!! ugg.  I then went back to my really moist wipe and bingo.  Perfect patch and tolerated 180 grains just fine.  Didnt have time to shoot a group for accuracy.

Now to the question, it was really gusty today so that may have been the issue but I did shoot a group of 3.  First shot, fine.  Second shot I got the rifle loaded, as noted above and the darn phone rings.  I take a 15 min phone call and then shoot. The shot goes 4" to the left, no vertical change, patch fine.  Mutter ..  I load my last shot and shoot it in my typical fashion and I nearly put it through shot #1 at 100.  Not suprising as that is what this rifle does at 100.  I am not sure if shot 2 is related to the wind (gusting right to left at maybe 15-20mph, enough to blow the target down several times) or is loading for bench accuracy that sensitive that timing is critical.  I will retry the load and see how it does but I was curious.

[Don Getz]

Plastico...........140, 160, 180 grains of powder.    Holy cow man, what kind of gun are you shooting?   Many times when
a new shooter gets into the game they think this thing should shoot like an 06'   I am curious about the gun, patching,
balls, calibre and rate of twist.   I was shooting 80 grains of FF out of my chunk gun and I thought that was a lot...Don

[Gene Carrell]

I only shoot 95gr behind a 540gr slug in  my  long range rifle.

[Long Ears]

Wow, I am sure the expert will chine in here but the round ball does not buck the wind well as we all know. However with that load the thing is probably melting before it reaches the target! Bob

[smylee grouch]

I have had the same thing happen to me when I dont shoot in some kind of cadence. I also shoot a fouling shot first thing in a new relay (off target) and try to shoot all record ,for score shots in the same cadence-sequence.    Smylee

[bgf]

It may be all psychological, but I have seen cases where allowing the rifle to sit uncleaned or with just a wipe (e.g. during your phone call) will allow the fouling to dry and harden and cause problems with the next shot, but it will settle down again when the random shot cleans it back to "normal".  I think it has a lot to do with the weather whether it is a problem or not !

[plastikosmd]

I want to blame the wind but I fear it may have to do with the delay. I wanted to see if this was something that was known by all but me. I will try the load again and provide an update. As far as pics, I'm not sure I can as they may violate rules as it is not a 'longrifle.' For completeness sake it is a R L Morris set with a 45/62 rb barrels, a slug barrel and a 52 rb flinter. The 62 weighs maybe 45-50 lbs. twist I can't remember. It has shot tighter as I have gone up in load. Shoots just under 1" at 100 with aperture sights. Best was 4 through same hole, pulled the fifth, mutter

[Daryl]

Sorry for the late post, but had to go to the store after typing this out.

 As I understand the heavy bench-rest game, they are the loads commonly used for 100 and 200yard shooting.  Ask anyone doing it, if 80gr. or even less will work.

As to the burning patches, I suspect a slightly dry cleaning patchs probably left too much fouling for your dry shooting patch to tolerate with that tight with an oversized ball. The patch probably started to cut by the fouling going down and out again on the way out, therefore the burns.

The extra wet patch cleaned more completely - thereby allowing the heavy charges without any cutting and subsequent burning.

Sounds logical as all get out, to me.

 

[plastikosmd]

Makes good sense why a bit of moisture is helping, thank u.

As far as loads, I have no clue as to what is correct. My only shooting partner is the internet. I have never even shot with another bp shooter. I just keep trying stuff to see what works.   Can't wait to try 180 again now that I relearned what I knew at one point!

[JBlk]

I would be surprised if your barrel lenght is long enough to burn that much powder.I think that I would start at 90 grains and work up from there.One of my .54s is much more accurate when using 2F instaed of 3 F, but another it doesn't seem to bother.What type of material are you using for patches?The brand of powder could also figure into the equation as well as a variances in ball weight.

[Daryl]

Yes - I'd be using 2f as well - lower standard deviations in speed and pressure.(that's good) I can definitely see the heavy charges in a large bore- .62 through .69, but probably would be a bit more conservative with smaller bored guns.

[Larry Pletcher]

Fellows shooting heavy bench guns at Friendship do shoot large loads by normal rifle standards.  I have heard of loads as you suggest, but cannot verify from memory or notes.  With your interest in heavy bench shooting, it would be cool if you could get to Friendship.  Watching these fellow shoot is an education.

As to your shot#2, the delay in shooting could be a factor as well as the heavy wind.  A change in light conditions wasn't mentioned, but is also a factor in this type of shooting, probably affectiong elevation.
Regards,
Pletch

[Roger Fisher]

Yes, the bench shooters kinda shake the ground when they touch one off.   Are you by chance anywhere near central eastern Pennsylvania. if so The good ol boys at Blue Mt ML club Shartlesville, Pa are benchers from way (way) back.  They left the offhand nuts in to pay the bills   If you are close enough e mail me here and I'll give you the num ber of a contact... 25 out to 200 yds....

[Frizzen]

You need that round ball going as close to 2,000 fps as you can. I get this in my 45 cal with
a 32 inch barrel with 90 grs Goex FF.  In a 40, 65 grs will do it. In a 50-54 cal. It will take quite
a bit more. Probably 110-160.  Bench guns are heavy for a reason.

[Daryl]

My .40, when 42", gave me 2,260fps with both 65gr. 3F GOEX and 75gr. 2f GOEX.  My .45, at 42", gives me 2,230fps with both 75gr. 3f and 85gr. 2F.  Those are the accuracy loads when using an oiled patch- LHV to be exact, but shoots virtually indentically with Hoppe's #9 PLUS.

[plastikosmd]

Thx guys. I am not sure on burn etc. I started at less than 100 grains. Accuracy continues to improve with load so I chase it. Recoil is less than my 22-250, not an issue. When I reach a ceiling without gain I will stop. I am using 2f. Loads may sound high, I understand. At least it is cheaper to shoot than my big 69 caliber slug gun shoots a 1/4 lb projectile(1750 gr) ahead of 300-350 g of Fg

[flintlock]

In a 50-54 cal. It will take quite a bit more. Probably 110-160.  Bench guns are heavy for a reason.

FWIW, in my .50 caliber 38" Getz barrel, 90 grains FFFg Swiss pushes a .490" ball at 2050 fps MV. 120 grains gives 2284 fps MV. Groups with 90 grains were very good. Groups with 120 grains absolutely stunk!

[Daryl]

The larger the powder charge, the tighter the load must be to remain sealing.  If powder gasses can leak past the ball and patch combination, the leakage will be variable and the shot to shot presssure will fluctuate more and that lack of or reduction in consistancy will enlarge groups.

The illustrate this, with light loads, to 100gr. 2F, a simple .020" patch (mic'd) worked fine (if 2" at 50 yards is fine) in my .69, but with 120gr. the groups opened up to over 3".  Picking up the patc hes revealed inconsistant burning in spots, which changed, patch to patch.  Increasing the patch thickness to .025" showed the same accuracy as before. but as the powder charge was increased yet further, from 140gr. all the way up to 200gr., accuracy was in the minute of angle range, to 1 1/2 MOA from 50 yards right out to 200yards.

Plastikosmd is not shooting a shouldered, offhand-style trail walk or hunting rifle at 25 or 50 yards. He's shooting oversized balls with thick patches in a bench gun at from 100 to 200yards - a different sport entirely.

[zimmerstutzen]

When I shot competitively in college, we shot four or five shots over the first minute as sighters, just to warm up the barrel.  Then we shot for score.  If for any reason, we were interrupted and got off our regular timing, like a range light malfunction that took 15 minutes to fix, we again shot 4 or 5 warm up shots before shooting for score.

good heavy bench gun should not be subject to any barrel warp due to temperature,    Other factors can arise.  The human eye  comes from the shade or inside to outside to different lighting.  Target contrast is no longer the same.  A shooter's routine is thrown off balance.  bench posture might have been unoticeably slightly off after the interruption. 

The gremlins of inconsistency come out when there are such interruptions. 

[FRJ]

I'm just a newbie, but it seems to me that you don't have enough info. I would go out and shoot several more 3 shot groups and see what they do. I would also leave the Da(( phone off!!!! Keep you cadence the same and watch the wind and I bet it doesn't happen again. FRJ

[plastikosmd]

thx guys,

phone-cant I am on call

gun, it has been shooting well, in regular cadence no issues.  Went up to 200 or so grains.  I have backed back down to 140 as that is where I first saw good accuracy. Best was 140/150/160.  I will start to split between them now

[doug]

     I am surprised that Daryl is being so conservative in his powder charges today; I would have expected him to say 180 grains is a good beginning and then work up to an accurate load  :>)  :>)

     sorry but I couldn't resist

cheers Doug