Author Topic: Non-Threaded Breech Plug?  (Read 7813 times)

Thunder Chief

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Non-Threaded Breech Plug?
« on: June 06, 2012, 05:42:58 AM »
So, being that this is my first post, I figure I should get my first newb question free, right? ::)

I remember reading a while back on a bp cannon forum about people shrink fitting their breech plug then (I think) pinning them and welding them in.  Is this a viable option for a non-period barrel?  Would it be able to deal with the pressure adequately?  At the moment, I'm specifically thinking of a pistol barrel, but I'd like to hear thoughts on rifles, too.  Thanks,

TC

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Non-Threaded Breech Plug?
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2012, 05:55:22 AM »
We're mostly traditionalists.  There are plenty of reasons why one would want to be able to remove a breechplug.
Andover, Vermont

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Non-Threaded Breech Plug?
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2012, 06:48:35 AM »
And the benefit would be ?

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Non-Threaded Breech Plug?
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2012, 06:59:50 AM »
Not on your life!
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Thunder Chief

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Re: Non-Threaded Breech Plug?
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2012, 08:36:00 AM »
I mostly ask because I lack the machining tools required to thread the breech plug in the first place.  If (when) I end up building something, I plan on doing the rest in a more traditional fashion, I just haven't really figured out how to do this particular operation with the tools at hand.

Also, when did breech plugs start to appear on weapons? Did they start threaded?

Not on your life!
Why is my life in danger?  Could this method work, or would I be asking for a breech plug in the forehead?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 08:42:12 AM by Thunder Chief »

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Non-Threaded Breech Plug?
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2012, 02:47:06 PM »
Buy a barrel with the plug already fitted. A number of barrel makers make pistol barrels.

I would not trust a pressed in plug with a weld on the outside.

Considering all the work you put in the rest of the gun, you want the very foundation, the barrel, to be reliable and of good quality. You also need to consider that the pistol will likely out live you, and end up in someone else's hands. You don't want any nasty surprises to befall anyone.
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Non-Threaded Breech Plug?
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2012, 03:04:14 PM »
Making a barrel is not a trivial thing or a good first step in learning to build a gun.  Very few builderswith more than 20 years experience  here attempt it.
Andover, Vermont

Offline FlintFan

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Re: Non-Threaded Breech Plug?
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2012, 03:17:42 PM »
I mostly ask because I lack the machining tools required to thread the breech plug in the first place.  If (when) I end up building something, I plan on doing the rest in a more traditional fashion, I just haven't really figured out how to do this particular operation with the tools at hand.

Also, when did breech plugs start to appear on weapons? Did they start threaded?

Not on your life!
Why is my life in danger?  Could this method work, or would I be asking for a breech plug in the forehead?

Threaded breech plugs date to the earliest matchlocks. 

If you are not able/not willing to buy a die to thread a breech plug, you can not afford the equipment to properly make a shrink fit and welded connection between a plug and barrel.  You would need to a reamer for the breech of the barrel.  A lathe to turn the plug to a precision size. A acetylene torch or forge to heat the breech of the barrel before inserting the plug. And a welder to weld everything together. 

There is nothing historically correct or safe about trying to fit a breech plug in this method.

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Non-Threaded Breech Plug?
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2012, 05:08:14 PM »
As a past owner of a cannon, I can tell you that they are very dangerous, even when built correctly. The construction is nothing to take chances with. I have seen devastating damage done just because the barrel  trunions were too far to the rear of the barrel. The barrel whip ripped the barrel completely out of the carriage, sending it 20 yards behind the carriage. A breech failure would make this look like a joke.

                                 Hungry Horse

Thunder Chief

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Re: Non-Threaded Breech Plug?
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2012, 07:34:05 PM »
Wow. Okay, thank you all for not letting me kill myself.

I found this site that sells barrels.  Do you happen to know if there is a touch-hole already drilled or not?  I would assume not, but I have no real basis for that assumption.
http://www.stonewallcreekoutfitters.com/barrels-2/rayl-pistol-barrels/

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Non-Threaded Breech Plug?
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2012, 07:47:37 PM »
Touch holes do not come pre-drilled.  You have to do that yourself once your lock is located.  The touch hole is then installed in relation to the lock.  I suggest your purchase one of the how-to books on gunbuilding so you will have a ready reference as your progress.
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Non-Threaded Breech Plug?
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2012, 07:48:10 PM »
I've never seen barrels pre-drilled for a touch hole as the builder wants to determine its location based on the lock inlet.  Drilling a touch hole is easy-peasy.  If you want to use a liner it's a little more challenging; you'll need a good drill press, specialized bits for the thread size and taps, etc.
Andover, Vermont

Offline davec2

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Re: Non-Threaded Breech Plug?
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2012, 07:49:26 PM »
Thunder Chief,

I do a lot of shrink fitting for a lot of very high tech, high pressure, operationally critical aerospace rocket propulsion hardware.  A safe breech plug could certainly be installed by shrink fitting, pinning, welding, etc., in a pistol barrel...or a cannon barrel.  However, to do shrink fitting properly, especially on a small diameter part, is not a trivial operation and more difficult to do than using threads.  For an idea of what type of precision is involved in the material, temperature, and clearance calculations, you might get a copy of the "Machinery's Handbook" and look up "Shrinkage Fits".  And, as has been pointed out, the permanence of the installation is a detriment.

For those of you who seem to have an aversion to shrink fitting, the process is used in a million places all around us in at least as high  a stress and as potentially dangerous a situation as a pistol barrel breech.  Giant steam turbines and jet engines have their turbine wheels shrunk on the central shaft.  Every rail road wheel you see on a train has a shrink fit rim.  Shrink fitting of liners, reinforce jackets, and breeches has been used successfully for centuries in the manufacture of cannon.  Yes, a poorly done shrink fit can be dangerous...just like a poorly done threaded breech can be dangerous.

So, to me, the question is not whether a shrink fit / pinning / welding process can be used to safely install a breech plug because it certainly can.  My response would be that it is not easier to do than a threaded breech.  I would recommend that you either buy a professionally manufactured barrel, have a competent gun smith or machinist thread a barrel and breech plug for you, or begin your gunsmithing education by learning how to install a traditionally threaded (and removable) breech plug.  Buying a good quality tap and die is not that expensive a proposition and the task can be learned with a little practice.  

Or, here is another option.  Drill and tap the breech to a proper shoulder.  (You only need to buy a plug and bottoming tap for this part.)  Then find a bolt with the proper thread and fit and run it up tight to the shoulder in the breech.  (You will need to dress off the end of the bolt nice and flat.) Hack saw off the bolt leaving 1/2 inch to 3/4 inch of bolt protruding out of the barrel.  File a flat on the top of the bolt protrusion where the top flat (if it is octagonal) of the barrel will be.  Also file a proper weld prep on either side of the protrusion and weld to the protrusion a strip of mild steel to form the barrel tang.  (The process is shown in a old and inexpensive 'how to' book by R.H. McCrory).  File the exterior of the plug to final shape and you have a breech plug that, if well done for fit, is as good as any integrally machined plug.
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Offline Bill of the 45th

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Re: Non-Threaded Breech Plug?
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2012, 08:02:30 PM »
The barrels you saw on the Stonewall Creek site are by Ed Rayl, one of the best and most respected barrel makers, so there is no worry their.  As has already been mentioned I too would recommend getting one of the building books and read it before even getting any parts.  There is an order to building, that most new builders generally have incorrect in their mind.  This can turn a fun, and enjoyable hobby into a nightmare.  Troy Roope, owner of Stonewell, is also a builder and can give you help in you choices.  A very friendly guy, he's worth giving a call to..

Bill
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Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Non-Threaded Breech Plug?
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2012, 08:04:06 PM »
 One word of caution.....Make certain that the bolt is of a proper material.  Over the last while, I've run into more than a few problems with stretching, shearing, etc . Chinese $#@*.  We had spec'd B7M but the bolts were brittle  and snapped off on one job .


Offline Cory Joe Stewart

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Re: Non-Threaded Breech Plug?
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2012, 08:14:03 PM »
Thunder Chief,

I am still fairly new as well.  I have built one rifle, and am now working on a kit with my dad. 

Anything you don't feel comfortable doing, or do not have the technology for, folks on here will help.  If you need something threaded, there are folks that will do that.

You found Stonewall Creek Outfitters.  That is good.  I still do not feel comfortable fitting the breechplug myself.  I just recently ordered a barrel from them and had them fit the plug.  Got it in the mail and all was good to go.  It will be for a project I am hoping to start in the fall. 

Have fun

Coryjoe

Bernard

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Re: Non-Threaded Breech Plug?
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2012, 09:52:20 PM »
If this is a first build attempt perhaps you should consider a kit. That would have the inletting done, the breech plug fitted and the touchhole drilled. You would learn something about how to complete the project and the tools required. I have  a machine shop but don't waste my time fitting breech plugs. To do it right you really need a lathe with thread cutting capability to make the plug (to get the threads straight on the plug blank) a bottom tap chucked in the tail stock will do a good job on the barrel. The whole operation, with the right tools, can be done in about 30 minutes. But why do it when most barrels you buy come with a breech plug.

joatmon

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Re: Non-Threaded Breech Plug?
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2012, 05:37:01 AM »
If you click on the longrifle at the top of the page then gunbuilding theres a lot of info including a order of build page. This site is great!

Aaron