Author Topic: Stock Repair ????  (Read 8388 times)

mlrifleNY

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Stock Repair ????
« on: June 20, 2012, 10:06:23 PM »
   This is my first post and I wish it was for something else. I have made 8 longrifles through the years and gave 1 to my son. He somehow broke the stock at the wrist. It is a long diagonal break at the wrist that I may have been able to repair and make look good. The problem is he just put gorilla glue in it and it didn't hold anything but it is in the wood so I can't use wood glue . It won't bond into the wood.  Question     is there any way to draw the gorilla glue out of the wood or do I need to try something else to try and glue it together. Any info is greatly appreciated.

Jim

Offline Ed Wenger

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Re: Stock Repair ????
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2012, 04:42:17 AM »
Jim,

I don't know if this will help, but try a search for Taylor Sapergia and stock repair.  If I recall, Taylor did a nice tutorial on the subject.  Without getting into the weeds, dowls were used to effect the repair.  I'm not sure about the Gorilla Glue and how that would affect the process.


          Ed
Ed Wenger

Offline Habu

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Re: Stock Repair ????
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2012, 07:17:39 AM »
I'd suggest this: Calmly go out to the shop.  Sit down.  Carefully grasp two handsful of your hair and rip it out.  That should distract you enough to keep from maiming the son.  

Even without pressure on the joint, some of the glue will have penetrated the wood.  I know of no practical way to dissolve the glue out of the wood, or even off the surface, resulting in a glueable joint.  But all is not lost.  

I once had to fix a guitar that someone had "repaired" with a poly glue (Gorilla Glue or similar).  I wound up having to cut away the wood contaminated with the poly and adding wood to build the surfaces back up before I could do the actual repair.  I suspect you may be in for a similar ride.  

Worst case (meaning "I hope someone comes up with a better idea!), you can carefully scrape the all glue from the areas of the stock near the outside edges of the break (so the repair won't show).  Then move into the break and scrape down to bare wood, leaving about an 1/8" around the edges of the break.  Test-fit it to make sure you can get a cosmetically-good joint, and plan how you will clamp it.  Once you've got that, do the old trick of drilling a couple of oversize holes and glassing in some threaded rod.

And welcome to the forum!

Jim
« Last Edit: June 21, 2012, 07:20:17 AM by Habu »

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Stock Repair ????
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2012, 07:44:57 AM »
I've never had occasion to glue any gorillas , so I've not used the stuff; but, I take it that the glue has sealed the wood. If so, dare I suggest trying one of the 'crazy' type glues ...they have worked for me in a couple of instances. Hide glue too, is pretty amazing stuff. I've glued glass together with it .  If all else fails,you could do a brass or copper wrap type repair for a period effect.

Offline Eric Smith

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Re: Stock Repair ????
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2012, 01:08:04 PM »
Wrap the wrist with boiled buffalo hide, then sew it tightly, and wait for it to dry.   ;D ;D ;D
Eric Smith

Offline Dale Campbell

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Re: Stock Repair ????
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2012, 02:56:24 PM »
It may, repeat may, be possible to dissolve the glue with pure acetone, careful scraping, time, and patience.  If this works, you will still have to be careful near the visible edges of the break.  If the acetone gets on the finish it will likely remove some.

I'm going to suggest working from the center of the break to the edges.  If you can dissolve the glue and get a reasonably tight joint at the edges, you can scrape more "aggressively" in the middle of the break. Fill with epoxy if necessary.  You may still have to refinish the entire stock afterwards.

And no, I don't know that acetone will dissolve Gorilla Glue from personal experience. Google is my friend.
Best regards,
Dale

Offline Curtis

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Re: Stock Repair ????
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2012, 04:07:48 PM »
This may give you some ideas also:

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=11854.0

You may be able to file, rasp and pick most of the gorilla glue out if you can't dissolve it in something.

Curtis
« Last Edit: June 21, 2012, 04:10:33 PM by Curtis »
Curtis Allinson
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Sometimes, late at night when I am alone in the inner sanctum of my workshop and no one else can see, I sand things using only my fingers for backing

mlrifleNY

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Re: Stock Repair ????
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2012, 04:32:34 PM »




This is the rifle in question. I didn't mention that the the BOY is 32 years old.  
« Last Edit: June 21, 2012, 04:33:49 PM by mlrifleNY »

Offline b bogart

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Re: Stock Repair ????
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2012, 04:39:31 PM »
Ouch!

Offline Jerry V Lape

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Re: Stock Repair ????
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2012, 10:22:43 PM »
Perhaps the makers of Gorilla Glue can give you some information on what might be an effective solvent for the glue.  If you can get the glue issue solved then I would think about inletting a fairly large wood key across that gap which would increase your mechanical strength and greatly increase the fresh glueable surface at the same time.  I have seen repairs with threaded rod which has the advantage of being self clamping - but they do add weight and can change the feel of the gun. (This is most objectionable on finely balanced modern shotguns and may not be a factor for you on a longrifle. )  Depending on where you run the threaded rod (it would normally come in from the inlet for the breech plug/tang) it might interfere with the tang bolt. 

Offline Pete G.

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Re: Stock Repair ????
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2012, 07:11:59 PM »
Perhaps epoxy would adhere to the Gorilla glue ? Then cover the joint (which will never blend in anyway) with a period looking repair consisting or a fitted brass plate and some screws. A lot of antique rifles have this repair for the same type break.

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Re: Stock Repair ????
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2012, 08:44:10 PM »
Ask the 'Boy' if he wetted to wood surfaces before appling the glue. If not, the glue wouldn't cure properly, and might just peel off with a bit of help.
If he did wet the wood and the glue did cure, a dremel tool, or similar, with a small burr will cut the glue away without removing too much wood. Keep away from the edges though. Go after that glue residue with a scrapper or knife blade. Careful cutting will get most of the glue off, without removing any edge wood.

I used Gorilla glue twice. Once with perfect results, and once with a total failure. I haven't touched the stuff since!

John
John Robbins

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Re: Stock Repair ????
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2012, 09:01:21 PM »
I use Acetone all the time and it will soften set glue, but it won’t completely get rid of the old glue “coating” on the wood.  You have to use a bronze brush with the acetone, but really scraping the surface of the wood clean is best, even doing it with a scribe or sharp pointed instrument where it won’t show from the outside.  I use ALL kinds of normally available and some uncommon epoxies and I don’t believe any are going to stick well to Gorilla Glue.  I’ve only used Gorilla Glue a few times and was never satisfied with it because it left too many holes.

I cracked the wrist of my Navy Arms Brown Bess “Carbine” very similar to that rifle when I first started doing CW reenactments and did not yet have a percussion musket.  I “hit the deck” in a war game and unconsciously reverted back to my training with M14’s in that you sort of throw the butt of the stock forward to break your fall.  Yeah, it broke my fall, but not only broke the wrist as on your rifle, but it also busted two large pieces of wood out on the wrist.  The Bess stayed like that for almost 20 years until I decided I wanted to fix it to sell/trade it in on a full length Bess. 

After looking it over more than a dozen times, I decided I had to actually break the two pieces apart so I could clean the wood in the crack and so the Accra Glass would properly adhere.  That was a heart wrenching moment.  I also had to break off the two small pieces as they would not have glued back in place without scraping some inside wood so they would sit correctly back in place. 

Of course, I was worried about the strength of even an Accra Glass glued wrist, so I got an 18” inch piece of 1/8” threaded brass rod and figured out how to cut two pieces that went into the forward part of the stock on either side of the tang screw and lengthwise into the length of the wrist where it would not show from outside the stock.  .I started the holes for them using carbide cutters in my Handy Grinder, which is a Dremel Tool on Steroids, but a Dremel would work.  After drilling the holes in the forward section, I used pieces of rod I pointed and that stuck out just enough from the upper part of the stock to show where the holes needed to be in the rear part.  Of course, I had to adjust the holes and made darn sure the holes were large enough that threaded rod pieces aligned and would not cause alignment problems when gluing the stock back together.  Also, I cut the holes a little cone shaped with the smaller end of the flat cone shape met up on each set of holes.  With Accra Glass filling the holes, this made an internal dovetail joint where the holes aligned.  Not sure if that was necessary, but it made me FEEL a lot more confident.  I even acetone cleaned the threaded brass rod to the Accra Glass would be sure to stick. 

I used Brownell’s brown dye on the Accra glass (Gel, not the plain stuff) and dyed it a bit darker than the rather blonde walnut stock.  (Accra glass dries a lighter color shade than when you mix it.)   I used Mold Release on the rear of the barrel, the lock, the trigger guard, the thumb piece and the tang screw.  I OVER filled the holes and voids with Accralass and .as I was setting in the pieces and screwing things together, I took excess off with the pallet knife or Q Tips moistened in Acetone THOUGH I deliberately left the Accra Glass 1/16” or a little more high off any crack or void that showed outside the stock.  I wrapped the stock with Brownell’s surgical tubing and even used the soft plastic jawed  pistol gripped clamps in a couple of spots to ensure it would be held tight and in position.  When the Accra Glass fully cure, I unwrapped everything and filed the high spots of Accra Glass until I got close to the wood surface and then used cabinet scrapers and other scrapers to get the Accra Glass even with the wood surface.  .

I really needed to refinish that stock, but since it was a rather blonde walnut, I used a golden brown dye that hardly darkened the wood at all and yet the exposed Accra Glass was VERY difficult to see and I knew exactly where the glue lines were.  I did not have to stain the stock much at all to cover the Accra glass.     

I polished all the metal parts on that Bess and took it with me to the 18th Century Market Faire at Fort Frederick, MD not long after it was done.  I brought along a bore light that fit down in the barrel and made a sort of “flag sign” I stuck in the barrel to advertise it for sale and slung it over my shoulder as I walked through the Sutler’s Area.  Since the “price was right,” a LOT of people looked at it and even after I told them about the repair, most people could not pick it out.  A Dealer actually wound up buying it and paid me my asking price without question.  Actually, he had let me get about 50 yards down the row after looking it over carefully and then came jogging up to hand me the money.

As dark as the color is on your rifle stock, it would be much easier to match the color of the Accra Glass and after it cures, stain it a bit to match the rest of the stock.  Yes, you will be able to closely see where it was done because you did it, but most people won’t notice it even on a careful inspection. 
Gus

mlrifleNY

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Re: Stock Repair ????
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2012, 01:43:08 AM »
  Well I have the rifle together and feel good about how Strong it is. I did use my dermal and cleaned up th e wood inside coming just short of the very outer edge. I used Accra glass very heavily on both parts. I had a pin that I drilled up from the trigger area to keep both half's in alignment and clamped with 2 C clamps.  After it set over night I drilled down the middle of the wrist area from the back of the barrel tang to just in front of the rear trigger guard mount. I poured a small amount of Accra glass in the hole and threaded a 1/4 threaded rod in and added Accra glass to the the rod as I threaded it all the way in.

I did clean up to much if the resin and now it shows more than I like. I will have to make a bit more to fill the outer edge and sand back.

Offline Habu

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Re: Stock Repair ????
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2012, 05:23:07 AM »
Given where you started--having to repair a previous unsuccessful repair--that looks pretty darn good. 

Offline Artificer

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Re: Stock Repair ????
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2012, 05:46:52 PM »
That was a wise move to use masking tap on either side of the crack.  I should have mentioned that.  Looks like you did a bang up first job and with the threaded brass rod, you have really increased the strength of the repair..

I don't know how much you have used Accra Glass, but may I make a suggestion when you go back in to fill the low spots?  After you roughen the surface with a dental pick, awl, or sharp pointy thing and you start to lay the Accraglass on, press it into crack with something like a pallet knife or even a thin piece of wood.  Then go back and press a little more over the top.  What that does is keep the air bubbles to a minimum.  Leave a mound or bead of Accraglass over the crack when you are done. 

Leave your left over Accra glass on something like wax paper and don't throw it out yet.  THEN go back about two hours later and see if the glass has begun to set up, if not, come back about an hour after that.  You can test it with your finger and gently pressing on it.  When it is about the texture of clay or silly putty, use the pallet knife or thin piece of wood to press the bead down into the crack, but do it gently.  If some pulls out, you can press it back in place.  I do it with a very flexible pallet knife and lay the middle of the blade below the crack and then roll/press the blade down on the glass and keep pressing as you pull the blade over and away from the glass.   Think of it as gently forcing the glass in place.  The technique is sort of like what plasterers or sheet rock layers use to fill in cracks.  If I’m still not sure, I come back and hour later and wet my finger and press the glass down a bit, but not so much as to go below the surface of the wood on each side of the crack.  Just make sure you leave a bead or mound of Accraglass alog the crack that is a little high off the surface of the wood.  After it sets up, you can use a chisel or scraper to bring it down to the wood surface.

Oh, I don’t know if you thought of this, but you can use a Black Permanent Magic Marker with a very fine tip to continue the wood grain over the crack and all along the crack everywhere the figure lines crosse the crack..  I do this a line at a time and gently wipe it and do it three or four times per “figure line.”  That will leave color on the Accraglass when you put some finish over the crack and hides the fact the crack shows a break in the figure.  . 

Gus

mlrifleNY

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Re: Stock Repair ????
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2012, 03:59:42 PM »
  I want to thank everyone for there help. The info here is great and helped make my live in this repair much easer. Again, thank you all.

Jim

mlrifleNY

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Re: Stock Repair ????
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2012, 06:16:41 PM »
  This is the finished repair on the rifle. I am happy with it. This was the 3rd rifle That I made back in1985, and even though the architecture isn't correct in the tang and lock area I still think it is a good looking rifle. Again thinks to all that helped.





Jim
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 06:18:18 PM by mlrifleNY »

Offline Artificer

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Re: Stock Repair ????
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2012, 07:16:45 PM »
Looks pretty good. 

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Stock Repair ????
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2012, 11:55:43 PM »
looks like you did a good job on the repair. I hope your son doesn't "take another whack at it" ;D
Dennis
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Offline flintriflesmith

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Re: Stock Repair ????
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2012, 12:22:37 AM »
... Oh, I don’t know if you thought of this, but you can use a Black Permanent Magic Marker with a very fine tip to continue the wood grain over the crack and all along the crack everywhere the figure lines crosse the crack.. 
Gus
I would stay away from any form of magic marker. The black is "light fugitive" -- a fancy term for the fact that it changes color over time. Almost all the blacks begin to turn purple in a few years.

Real old fashion India Ink is much more stable. Art supply shops usually have it.
Gary
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Offline Artificer

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Re: Stock Repair ????
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2012, 12:28:35 AM »
Gary,

Though I've never had that happen with permanent magic marker, I very much appreciate the information and will get some India Ink for that.  Thank you.
Gus

Online KLMoors

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Re: Stock Repair ????
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2012, 02:48:45 PM »
Nicely done! If that threaded rod got a good bite in there in might be stronger that it was originally. Either way, it sure is a lot better than when it was in 2 pieces!