Author Topic: A Source to Help Understand Lock Styling?  (Read 8586 times)

Greg Field

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A Source to Help Understand Lock Styling?
« on: December 11, 2008, 05:27:08 PM »
I feel lost when discussions range into the realm of "it's a German-style lock with an English cock."

I can look at some locks and easily tell where they differ, such as comparing a roundface lock to a beveled lock. Beyond that, I just draw a blank. Is there a resource that would allow me to compare and learn the subtleties of lock-part styling?

Thanks!

J.D.

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Re: A Source to Help Understand Lock Styling?
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2008, 08:39:51 PM »
Flintriflesmith's web site is a good place to start.

http://www.flintriflesmith.com/

George F.

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Re: A Source to Help Understand Lock Styling?
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2008, 09:14:42 PM »
I'll try to offer up a few of the differences, but I must warn you... I am far from being an authority on these matters.
 With that disclaimer said.... On Germanic style locks they have an octoganl pan. The pan is faceted with flates as a diamond would be cut. The cock is flat faced looking at it with the cock screw facing you and the edge is squared with  a bevel connecting the face ( cock screw face). The frizzen is basically along the same design, with the outer face of the frizzen beveled, and meeting the pan cover, where a transition is met. The pan cover is also faceted along to the tail( I don't know the proper term for it) where it terminates. The lock plate is flat with the edge beveled towards the lock face. The tail is pointed, The Siler styles have a filed decoration, but I think that some maybe a recessed flat area at the same elevation as the lock panel when inletted.
 On English style locks and French as well I believe, the plate is contoured like round faced, As well as the pan, which is gracefully contoured from the pan fence to the frizzen bridle. The frizzen is rounded on the outside face and blended down to the pan cover which is also round faced and countored to the tail where it is tapered and sometimes curled in a curly que.The cock is round faced as well . The tail on the lock plate is just tapered to a point. Now some English locks plates don't taper to a point. Some lEnglish lockplates are square ended, and some are round ended. Some English locks have cocks that are fancyed up with curly ques on their upper parts. Basically German locks bold flat faced and flat faceted... English locks rounded... Hope I got it right and bow to who truely enlightens us.....Geo.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 09:54:16 PM by George F. »

Offline Stophel

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Re: A Source to Help Understand Lock Styling?
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2008, 10:21:05 PM »
The English (and definitely the French) made faceted pans and flat locks.

The Germans were quite fond of round faced locks, though they seem to have kept them for themselves, and exported the flat ones to us.

I don't know if there's any way to really give a point-by-point explanation of the differences between German and English locks...
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Stophel

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Re: A Source to Help Understand Lock Styling?
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2008, 10:42:52 PM »
Here's a few different locks I happen to have online, showing some of the different forms:

An unusual maple stocked German gun (from the "Steinschloss Jaegerbuechsen" book, a must-have)

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A Dutch rifle, also stocked in maple, with a typical Dutch lock form.




A Dutch fowling gun with a flat faced lock.
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A somewhat unusual German bird rifle with a typical N. German styled lock.

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A rather above-average German flat faced gunlock.

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My German (Suhl) early 18th c. round faced gunlock.

It's all a matter of discerning style.

I don't have any good views of any English locks ready online.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 10:44:38 PM by Stophel »
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Online rich pierce

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Re: A Source to Help Understand Lock Styling?
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2008, 11:56:52 PM »
Of course flat faced cocks belong with flat faced locks, etc and so sometimes it's easy to see something is wrong, like when a round-faced cock is on a flat faced lock or vice versa. I think it takes a lot of exposure to begin to appreciate the different models available from different sources over al ong period of time.  Lots for me to learn.

I think when most people say, "German locks" and "English locks" they really mean "German locks found on American arms" and "English locks found on American Arms".  As Chris and maybe others mentioned there are plenty of round-faced Germanic locks found on European arms but they rarely have been employed on scratch-built guns here.  It looks like French locks were sometimes used in new England and for sure Dutch locks in the Hudson Valley of New York.  The Dutch locks look like early English locks to me, which makes sense since the English used a lot of Dutch arms from time to time.  The Dutch were avid arms dealers.

The Germanic export locks as represented by commerical offerings you can find in catalogues now include the Davis jaeger lock we've had available here since the late 1970's (very early banana styling, probably 1680-1720), the Siler (probably represents a 1770's-1780's export lock), the Jack Haugh early lock w/o bridle (often gussied to sell as a Tulle, etc and probably mid-1700's styling), and now the Davis early lock, which is probably third quarter of the 18th century in styling.  All these are flat-plated locks with faceted pans, etc. and it seems that was the case for nearly all Germanic export locks used here.  More confusion is based on the absence of a pan bridle.  Once thought to represent earlier locks or cheaper locks, we now know that is not accurate. Size of Gemanic flat-faced export locks and curvature of the lockplate do seem to diminish more or less progressively from 1700-1800.

Earliest "dog" locks from England were flat faced (here I mean locks with a safety dog hooking the cock) but after that very early period, English export locks were often round-faced.  However early Ketlands and others were flat faced.  Pans are round whether the lock is round or flat-faced.  English export locks are represented by the Chambers English Round Face and Queen Anne (mid 18th century), the R.E. Davis round-face fowler lock (a nice typical export quality lock fof mid 18th century styling) the flat-faced Ketland locks by Chambers and others (produced over a long time frame), the flat faced Twigg, the flat-faced but beveled L&R Durs Egg (1780's), and finally the L&R Ashmore, Manton, etc. (late flint) among others.

In general later English locks had a pronounced S-curved cock (see the L&R Durs Egg) with a less full "breast" than the Germanic locks.

Lots more could be said and I made some gross generalizations.  We haven't even touched French or Liege designs.



« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 11:58:56 PM by richpierce »
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Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: A Source to Help Understand Lock Styling?
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2008, 02:42:07 AM »
 Excellent question and outstanding replies. This board never ceases to amaze me.

Thanks, Tim C.
 

PGosnell

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Re: A Source to Help Understand Lock Styling?
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2008, 03:04:35 AM »
Chris,

Excellent posting.  Can you reply with a list of references for the pictures and pages you included in your posting.  Those definitely appear to be excellent references.

Paul
« Last Edit: December 12, 2008, 03:05:42 AM by PGosnell »

Offline Collector

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Re: A Source to Help Understand Lock Styling?
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2008, 03:18:46 AM »
BUT, while a round cock on a flat-faced lock plate would look out of place, a flat faced cock on a round-faced lock can be a nice element.  Ref: RCA Vol. I, No. 74 - Valentine Fondersmith.  Fortunately, if that element appeals to you, certain of Jim Chambers lock parts such as the Round Faced English and Early Ketland cocks are interchangeable.  

George F.

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Re: A Source to Help Understand Lock Styling?
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2008, 04:37:32 AM »
I guess I should of paid more attention when I was looking through that Jaeger book from J.C. It is incedible the work these masters done/did.  ...Geo.

Offline flintriflesmith

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Re: A Source to Help Understand Lock Styling?
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2008, 06:19:03 AM »
BUT, while a round cock on a flat-faced lock plate would look out of place, a flat faced cock on a round-faced lock can be a nice element.  Ref: RCA Vol. I, No. 74 - Valentine Fondersmith.  Fortunately, if that element appeals to you, certain of Jim Chambers lock parts such as the Round Faced English and Early Ketland cocks are interchangeable.  

Whether it appeals to your eye or not, that flat faced cock appears to to me to be a poorly fit replacement. It is too small with too short a throw and may be a Siler cock filed up a bit and engraved to match the plate. JMHO
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Greg Field

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Re: A Source to Help Understand Lock Styling?
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2008, 06:46:52 AM »
Yes, many thanks! This gives me a few things to study. It's a subject I love, so I am very happy to have the opportunity to study.

Offline Stophel

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Re: A Source to Help Understand Lock Styling?
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2008, 07:35:27 PM »
How 'bout a round cock on a flat plate?  The first gun I posted has one.  No, it was not the norm.

Lets see, the first two are from "Steinschloss Jaegerbuechsen", the Dutch gun is from a book titled "Dutch Firearms" (I think, I don't have it in front of me) by Arne Hoff, the German bird rifle is from a Hermann-Historica auction catalog.  I believe the fancy lock by Frey (note the round bottomed, square ended pan) is from the Bayrisches Nationalmuseum book "Handfeuerwaffen".  I believe I have virtually every gun book that illustrates flintlock guns in four languages!

I don't care for the flat cock on the round Fondersmith plate either.  That lock is English and typical export type lock for the 1760's.  They made flat locks that are virtually identical but for the flat faces.

Get the two volumes of Shumway's "Longrifle" articles.  One of them has a decent section or two on lock styles.   ;)
« Last Edit: December 12, 2008, 07:37:54 PM by Stophel »
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline AndyThomas

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Re: A Source to Help Understand Lock Styling?
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2008, 03:18:39 AM »
Actually, we need to get flintriflesmith retired from CW, and get him writing books about all these questions that come up here.

At the least, the lock presentation (mostly dealing with dating the lock, I think) that he presented at Bowling Green in 2007 should be published. And I have other questions, too.

thinking out loud,
Andy
formerly the "barefoot gunsmith of Martin's Station" (now retired!)

www.historicmartinsstation.com

Sean

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Re: A Source to Help Understand Lock Styling?
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2008, 04:53:54 PM »
Quote
Get the two volumes of Shumway's "Longrifle" articles.  One of them has a decent section or two on lock styles.   Wink

I'll second that.  Volume II has a couple of articles on the subject.

Sean