Author Topic: Proofing a Modern Barrel?  (Read 4144 times)

DB

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Proofing a Modern Barrel?
« on: August 04, 2012, 11:50:59 PM »
Do todays modern barrels, made of modern steels, ( Colerain, Rice, Burton,Getz,) need proofing before use? Or do you all just build them and shoot them? What is the concencus on this?

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Proofing a Modern Barrel?
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2012, 01:07:12 AM »
Not saying its correct but I have never proofed one new on e yet out of 40+ rifles. I did proof one that had a new drum installed. Properly breeched new barrels have a good track record. As I said, dont know if this is the right thing to do but I have had good luck so far.    Smylee

Online Dave B

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Re: Proofing a Modern Barrel?
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2012, 02:27:18 AM »
there has been lots of discussion on this topic in the past and will be found in the Archives. This is one of the topics that slides over into which barrel steels are the best and before you know it the admins got to lock it up tight.
When I first started I proofed them because I was breaching them my self but any more I don't bother.
Dave Blaisdell

Offline Don Getz

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Re: Proofing a Modern Barrel?
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2012, 02:28:42 AM »
Early on in the barrel business, we decided to proof some of the smaller barrels that we made.  After doing some awesome proofing, I felt it was no longer needed.   Since I made almost all of the breech plugs,  I knew how well they
were done and do not feel it is necessary to proof a barrel anymore.   However, since most of you do not do the breeching, you might want to do some proofing, just to satisfy your own curiosity that it will not blow up on that first shot.
The proof load does not have to be outlandish, perhaps a double load of powder, but I would not try to double ball, or
run a patched ball down on top of another.   It might create air pressure between the balls and push it up the barrel as
you remove the ramrod.  I don't know if this could happen, but it sound feasible................Don

Offline FL-Flintlock

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Re: Proofing a Modern Barrel?
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2012, 04:53:20 AM »
To “not” proof is just foolish because no matter how good you “think” the material is and how good you “think” you are, something is going to come around and bite you in your buttplate.  Service side gas pipe running <5 psig (most 6” of water column or less) but it still gets pressure tested to 150 psig then vacuum tested for 24 hours.  I agree with Don that it’s not prudent to intentionally overload to excess but at a minimum one should follow common proof house standards.

I’ve posted this several times before but I’ll say it again ... when it comes to double-ball loads, they need to be treated the same as shot loads where the “assembly” is seated AT THE SAME TIME!  Start the first PRB until it is no further in the bore than flush with muzzle, a little proud of the muzzle (0.050”) is even better and make sure the patch is trimmed such that it is below the top of the ball.  Set the second PRB on the first one and use your short starter.  The pair of PRB’s is then rammed and seated as an “assembly” which prevents air from getting trapped between the balls because the first one can’t go down until the second one pushes it down.  Same thing when load a shot charge in a smoothie – pour the powder, insert nitro card and cushion wad just far enough down the bore so the top of the shot charge is flush with the muzzle.  Then insert the OS card wad, ram and seat the entire assembly firmly onto the powder charge.
The answers you seek are found in the Word, not the world.

Offline B.Habermehl

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Re: Proofing a Modern Barrel?
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2012, 03:38:17 PM »
The only time I proof fire a barrel is when I am using any cast breech assembly. One failed some time ago on me devastating a completed rifle. P.S. I never plan to use one again!
BJH

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Proofing a Modern Barrel?
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2012, 12:26:33 AM »
 Proofing is not a bad idea but the weak area of the idea is that while a barrel might not fail with a "proof" load,it may fail later.
IF sensible loads are used as they once were when these guns were "state of the art" then the chances of failure are reduced.
I posted before that the 58 caliber Modena Hawken had a flask with it that was adjustable to 4 or 5 charges and the maximum was 85 grains.
A 280 grain soft lead ball driven by 85 grains of good quality BLACK powder is not a feeble load by any standards.
I believe all the best makers of today will at least fire the gun a few times to make sure all is working well and may even sight it in for accuracy tests before delivering it to the buyer. The advice given by FL-Flintlock is as sound as it gets.It is a good proof without doing something dangerous.
As far as cast breeches go,both the Hawken shop as operated by Art Ressel and the shop of Don Brown had their cast breeches X rayed snd even the slightest suspicion of a flaw meant the breech was destroyed. Don Brown's breech was unique to his Alex Henry .451 that used a bullet of 500 or more grains in weight with 90 or more grains of powder. I have an original Hawken/Gemmer hook breech that came from the Gemmer estate and it is a forging as there are no parting lines to indicate it was a casting. I also have one of the last breeches Don had finished before his passing away. Neither are for sale and  I use them as gages when making a new lock.

Bob Roller

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Proofing a Modern Barrel?
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2012, 12:33:08 AM »
 One of the joys of getting old and feeble minded is forgetfullness. I meant to post my new E mail address which is <bobroller@frontier.com>
Memeory is said to be the second thing to go and for the life of me I can NOT remember what the first one was.{;>)

Bob Roller
 

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Proofing a Modern Barrel?
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2012, 03:08:14 AM »
Just for fun, here's how they did in the 19th Century. That was a time, say about 1840, when the average age at death was 40-50 for a gentleman in England, and 20 to 40 for mechanics and laborers. Me, I prefer 21st Century standards of mortality, but . . . (unacceptable subject)

George Bomford, Lieut. Col. of Artillery, on Ordnance duty, issued regulations for proof and inspection of small arms in 1824. For a .69 cal. musket, a little smaller bore than your 12 ga, the requirement for the first proof was one eighteenth part of a pound of powder (389 grains) and a ball weighing one fifteenth of a pound. This to be loaded with two paper wads each to measure three fourths of an inch in length, after being well rammed; one of the wads to be placed on the top of the powder, the other on the top of the bullet. The whole to be well rammed with copper rods. The second proof was with one twenty-second part of a pound of powder (318 grains), ball and wads the same as the first. After this the barrel was inspected inside and out for flaws, cracks, etc.

The purpose of a proof test at that time was to find flaws in the iron (a definite possibilitly still),  bad welds (don't have to worry about that now), or improper breeching (still important).
For barrels welded on a trip hammer at Springfield Armory, failure in proof was, I recall, maybe 8 to 12%. At Harpers Ferry, hand-welded barrels, possibly with inferior iron, had proof failures as high as 40%.

December 1972 Muzzle Blasts has an interesting article on proof testing, with photo, by Roy Keeler.