Author Topic: Bronze Mounts?  (Read 4977 times)

Offline David R. Pennington

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Bronze Mounts?
« on: August 18, 2012, 04:42:24 AM »
Has anyone any experience working with bronze. A few years ago I replaced some doors in an historic building. The building was built in the 1920's and all exterior doors were solid extruded bronze. The doors I replaced were to a storage area and had literally been beaten to death over the years. I assumed they were iron since they were in a storage area and not in public view and were crusted over with 80 years worth of paint and grime. I hauled them off and tried to give them away with no takers. They were in my way in the shop so I decided to cut them up and scrap them. These were large doors 8 ft. tall and it took two men on one end to lift. I had to use block and tackle to get them out of my truck at the shop. It was not until I started to cut them up that I realized they were also bronze. They originally had glass panels but these had been replaced over the years with solid panels. One with a sheet of brass and on the other door with a sheet of iron in place of the glass. I saved the brass plate and some pieces of the doors and frame work and scrapped the rest.  My jaw dropped when they paid me at the scrap yard!!!
 Anyway I had been toying with the idea of trying to use some of this bronze to make gun mounts. I know it probably isn't PC but would look nice. It looks like gold when it is polished. My question is is it workable? Can it be anealed like brass and hammered? Most of the material is .162 thick. Any ideas?
 
VITA BREVIS- ARS LONGA

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Bronze Mounts?
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2012, 06:34:55 AM »
 The lost wax cast gun fittings sold today are bronze. The only ones that are yellow brass are the sand cast ones in most cases.

                            Hungry Horse

Offline Long Ears

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Re: Bronze Mounts?
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2012, 12:13:47 AM »
Hungry Horse, I don't think that is true. Dave Keck's castings are lost wax and very nice soft yellow brass I'm pretty sure. I also believe Jim Chambers castings are soft brass and lost wax cast. The bronze castings I have used were very hard and not easy to bend without breaking. The brass ones are like butter in comparison. IMHO, Bob

Offline smart dog

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Re: Bronze Mounts?
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2012, 02:23:50 AM »
Hi Dave,
Bronze is harder and more brittle than brass.  However, it is also stronger and more corrosion resistant.  It should work up very well if you are careful.  I've used it to make jewelry but not on guns.  I always annealed it using the same procedure as brass.  It can be cold bent but go slow and be careful because it is more brittle.  It work hardens like brass as well.  Also Dave, there are many alloys of bronze including phosphor bronze, maganese bronze, etc.  They all have slightly different properties.

dave
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Offline heelerau

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Re: Bronze Mounts?
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2012, 03:17:11 AM »
 I wonder if you would be best to melt some of this bronze and cast trigger guards and etc. I have a bronze wheel key from work and am thinking of melting it down and casting a knife blade. Just a thought

Cheers

Gordon
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Offline heinz

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Re: Bronze Mounts?
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2012, 03:30:23 AM »
Bronze is very useful stuff, although it has a wide variety of properties depending on the exact alloy.  It makes awesome vice jaws or covers for vice jaws.  It can be used to line the jaws on hand vices and pliers.  It makes very serviceable wear plates on benches.  I only have a small piece in my shop and use it for sight bases.

When I was a kid in a sheet metal shop we used it often in applications where you wanted to avoid marring the steel.  Never tries a knife out of it but our ancestors did and liked it. Until they discovered iron :-)
kind regards, heinz

Offline James Wilson Everett

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Re: Bronze Mounts?
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2012, 07:30:37 AM »
Guys,

I use bronze to make pistol barrels, CDA 936.  It cuts, files and polishes like a dream.  It appears to be a more red color than yellow brass and it is quite a bit harder than yellow brass.  Most of what are now called "brass" barreled guns (cannons) were actually bronze.  I made one rifled barrel from bronze which rifled surprisingly easy.  Normally it takes about 700 or so pulls to rifle an iron barrel (about 100 cuts per groove); with the bronze barrel it took only 14 pulls - thats only 2 cuts per groove for a 0.012 deep groove!!!

On the other hand - I just finished a set of surveyor's compass vanes for a customer.  He had the vanes sand cast in bronze to a wooden pattern I made.  I believe that the founder used phosphor bronze.  This stuff is the toughest stuff I have ever worked with, really difficult to cut and file.

Here is a photo of a bronze barreled pistol with a brass lockplate, you can see the color difference.






Here are some gentleman's pistols with bronze barrels and brass mountings.  The lock and mountings are store-bought.





Jim
« Last Edit: December 10, 2019, 05:58:27 PM by James Wilson Everett »

Offline Kermit

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Re: Bronze Mounts?
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2012, 05:52:27 PM »
Bronze tools won't spark. Good idea in some environments. IIRC, Chambers' "brass" lockplates are actually bronze.
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Bronze Mounts?
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2012, 06:30:16 PM »
The words "brass" and "bronze" are ancient terms. Then simple (and misleading) definition is that brass is an alloy of copper with zinc. Modern cartridge brass is a NOMINAL 70% copper, 30% zinc. Bronze used to be an alloy of copper with tin. Civil War bronze "Napoleans" were, I believe, 90% copper and 10% tin.
In our day we still use the terms "brass" and "bronze" but in fact there are around 500 different standard copper alloys called by these names. About all they have in common is some large amount of copper.
Here are portions of something I wrote titled Gunmetals Never got around to publishing it, just use it as a reference for myself.
The first copper alloy in history was arsenic bronze, followed by tin bronze about 5000 B.C. in the far East. The weapons Homer speaks of in the Iliad were all of tin bronze . . . The SAE in 2004 listed over 500 different alloys, whose names include various combinations of the words copper, brass and bronze. The alloying elements used now cover the alphabet from the most ancient, Arsenic, to the newest, Zirconium.
. . . remember the differences amongst tin bronze and brass, copper and gilding metal. They are all different shades of red and yellow. Nickel silver is nearly white. This  name is often confused with a similar alloy called German silver, which has a slight yellowish cast to it. Bells are made of bronze with about 22% tin and 78% copper. This makes a fairly hard alloy with a good ring. This hard metal may also crack if the bell is hung wrong. If one is to melt down church bells to cast cannon, one must add some copper to the melt so the metal is ductile enough for a gun.
Many alloys, called variously brass or bronze, are alloys of copper with both tin and lead. One such is cast Gunmetal, also known as Government Bronze G, with the Unified Numbering System identification C90500. The alloy is nominally 88% copper, 2% zinc and 10% tin. In practice a little lead may be added to improve the soundness of the casting, and for machinability
. . . store neither your modern ammunition, nor your powder flasks, either in the barn, or near the kitty litter!
The cracks in the (bronze revolver, long stored in a Tennessee horse barn) frame, shown here, along with several others in the grip frame, bring up an important point about copper alloys. They are all subject to “season cracking” in the presence of ammonia or other nitrogen compounds. A 1942 metallurgy book states: It is well known that the atmosphere in the vicinity of stables and farm yards is a very dangerous one for stressed brass, and in olden times a car garaged in farm buildings often exhibited many season-cracked brass parts. It is not such common knowledge that the urine of rodents and of some other animals—for example, cats—quickly produces season-cracking, and that many tons of cold-drawn brass have been ruined annually owing to the unwelcome attention of mice and rats in old warehouses. . .” 

Brass is normally thought of as copper with zinc added. Modern cartridge brass is 70% copper 30% zinc. Copper-zinc alloys range from 5 to 40% zinc.
Early metallic cartridges were of what today is called “gilding metal”, an alloy of copper with just 5% zinc. The zinc improved both strength and ductility,  so the metal better withstood drawing into a cartridge case.
Below is a .45-70 “Multi-Ball” cartridge, designed to more effectively destroy the last free people in North America. The case is 94.8% copper 5.2% zinc, known at that time as Bloomfield’s Gilding Metal.
This 5% zinc alloy (almost as red as copper) is stronger than pure copper, but not as strong as the 70% copper 30% zinc cartridge brass used today. Gilding metal is now used for bullet jackets (metal patched bullets, to use an older terminology)
Lead in these and other brass parts is the reason one must not heat brass to bend it. The lead melts, or comes close to melting, and with a little bending it runs along the grain boundaries so that the part breaks, or crumbles, in two. Bend all brass, new or old, at room temperature

Offline David R. Pennington

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Re: Bronze Mounts?
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2012, 04:45:39 AM »
Thanks for all the input guys. I just might experiment and see what I come up with.
VITA BREVIS- ARS LONGA

Offline flehto

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Re: Bronze Mounts?
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2012, 07:29:29 PM »
Yrs ago I built a LR w/ a bronze buttplate and TG and a yellow brass patchbox and when new and polished, all 3 blended somewhat,  but as they aged, the bronze parts took on a "pinkish" color and contrasted too much w/ the yellow brass Pbox.  All bronze components would be quite attractive, although couldn't be mistaken for yellow brass.....Fred



Earlier photo when polished and new....

« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 07:48:55 PM by flehto »