Author Topic: Bowie Knives??  (Read 4851 times)

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Bowie Knives??
« on: August 25, 2012, 04:02:18 AM »
OK, LRB, Chuck , Curt and you other knife makers.. I have read the history here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowie_knife

But it still seems that practically every knife I see is called a Bowie and no two seem to look alike.  I recognize the big Confederate Bowie, the coffin handled Bowie etc. but there are amny more shape, some clip points and some without....

How do you define a Bowie knife??
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Offline Eric Smith

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Re: Bowie Knives??
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2012, 05:45:40 AM »
Unfortunately Doc, the Bowie knife has been watered down till most of them are only about 15% Bowie. People put a bowie guard on it and think "  It's a Bowie!".  The Musso Bowie sets the standard for me.
Eric Smith

Offline Bull Shannon

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Re: Bowie Knives??
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2012, 05:49:49 AM »
Good question, especially considering that Sheffield started to flood the US with their versions of the Bowie knife in around 1840. http://www.sheffield-cutlery.com/bowieknives.html
Laws have been passed banning the carry of a Bowie knife but that becomes problematic because you only have to change the design a little bit and technically it's just a fixed blade knife that looks somewhat like a Bowie knife.   Here in Texas an illegal weapon includes carrying a knife with a blade longer than 5 and 1/2 inches but with numerous exceptions and court interpretations.  I guess the definition of what exactly a Bowie knife was and looked like was the same as our present day question as to what exactly does an assault rifle look like?
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Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Bowie Knives??
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2012, 06:16:31 AM »
Dr. Tim....there was just an article on Bowies in the last American Tradition magazine...as it was mostly written by a hack it may not have the answers you are looking for, but if youve not seen it, it might be of interest to you.

The first Bowies made or comissioned by Rezin or James were nothing like what comes to mind when we think of a Bowie now...
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Re: Bowie Knives??
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2012, 06:55:40 AM »
I thought that "hack" did a really nice job of making some sense of the whole Bowie issue!  Just wanted to  thank you for the article T.C., very well done.
Thanks again,
Steve Auvenshine

Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Bowie Knives??
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2012, 07:12:48 AM »
Thanks Steve...I sincerely appreciate the kind words...

I'm out of my depth here, but from what I can gather it seems some of the early clip point and guard design can be attributed to Schively as exhibited in his "Improved" bowie pattern...maybe...and Joe Musso makes a good case that what we know as the Musso pattern was conceived and or executed by James Black himself...again, maybe...either of these early patterns would generally be recognized as a "Bowie" knife by most folks today, while a Searles styled blade or the coffin hilts perhaps would not? But by association they are all Bowies. The assult gun analogy above is a good one.
tc
« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 07:15:50 AM by T.C.Albert »
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Offline Chuck Burrows

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Re: Bowie Knives??
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2012, 08:35:18 AM »
as noted the term Bowie has become to mean many types and was even so back when. While some of the other Bowie students/aficionados will/may disagree, IMO Norm Flayderman's book. The Bowie Knife, Unsheathing an American Legend is one of the best resources currently available since he offers a bunch of actual period documents.
The disagreements over this book apparently are mainly based on the fact that Flayderman used his own collection for the images and two his research into the whole James Black "mythos" that has caused so much controversy.

Regarding clip point blades, the style is far older than the Schively or any other 19th Century Bowie for that matter. The pattern dates back to the Middle Ages at least. There is an early dark ages seax blade in the British Museum that unless you knew it was from that period one would swear that it was a classic 19th Century Bowie with a clip point. And guards despite "common knowledge" are not a 19th Century innovation. IMO the English were the most likely "culprits" when it came to that particular style blade as being a Bowie (or Arkansas Toothpick), but there were also American maker's producing clip point Bowies by the early 1830's in direct competition with the English. And FWIW English made Bowies were being heavily imported to the US by the mid 1830's although sales increased even more in the 1840-160 era/.

As for the original Sand Bar Bowie, Rezin, Jim's brother described it thusly
Rezin P. Bowie, Planters Advocate: August 24, 1838:
Quote
The first Bowie knife was made by myself in the parish of Avoyelles, in this state (Louisiana), as a hunting knife, for which purpose, exclusively, it was used for many years……The length of the blade was nine and one-quarters inches, its width one and one-half inches, single edged and not curved.
- as Tim noted the earliest documented Bowies are not what one normally considers a Bowie i.e. the "classic" clip point Bowie. The original Bowie as described by Rezin (pronounced reason BTW) and along with the earliest documented examples of Bowies (many if not most commissioned by Rezin) have blades that are more like what we now commonly call a French chef's knife. The style is more a typical Mediterranean area style blade, that again goes back at least to the Middle Ages, rather than the classic Musso or Iron Mistress style clip point blade (that movie and the book on Bowies by Raymond Tharpe, have for better or worse heavily colored our image of what an original style Bowie was/is despite the historical  record. That style blade is one that would in fact have been very common ione n Louisiana, home of the Bowie clan, with it's heavily French and Spanish influence, whereas clip points are again mostly an Anglo style.  The early and documented Searles blade for one is a good example of the Med style.

IMO so much "bad" and mediocre info has been written over the years about the subject (including a lot of the footnotes on Wikipedia) that it's often hard to wade through the blather at times and frankly ALL references and experts need to be checked and cross referenced (and taken with a grain or two of salt) no matter who the author is or what the subject is.

To add to the confusion, over a relatively short time the term Bowie became a generic and marketing term for any large bladed knife or in the case of the San Francisco styles as made by such makers as Michael Price, any "fighting" knife. Generic in much the same way Coke became "the" name for any cola drink whether it is made by Coca Cola, Pepsi, Shasta, RC, etc.

IMO unfortunately this is also one of those subjects that can get VERY heated and set passions on high. I've come to my own conclusions over the past fifty years of research into the subject (they are not written in stone though), but I generally keep them to myself because I'm just not up to dealing with the heated (oft times over heated) emotions about the subject that get in the way. Overall my attitude is to delve into this or any subject with as an open mind as possible and let the facts, and not just opinions (no matter who's) with out verified substantiation, speak for themselves.

Quote
[They are about the size of a common English carving knife, but for several inches up the blade cut both sides/quote]
FWIW that cut up both sides is a common feature on Med style blades, including Spanish Belduques. Th term in and of itself does not necessarily describe a clips points, which may or may not be sharpened along the back edge - in modern parlance such a clip without being sharpened is termed a false edge.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 09:20:05 AM by Chuck Burrows »
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Offline LRB

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Re: Bowie Knives??
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2012, 02:11:30 PM »
  Excellent summary Chuck. TC, I have yet to sit down and read the entire article word for word, been too busy, but I have skimmed it a couple of times and it seems very well done.

Offline Bill-52

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Re: Bowie Knives??
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2012, 03:32:52 PM »
TC,

Thoroughly enjoyed your article on Bowie knives, very educational and enlightening.  As always, the articles and photography in American Tradition set the bar very high.
My thanks to you and JM.

Bill