Author Topic: Massive Thomas Ketland Fowler  (Read 6671 times)

Offline TNVolunteerEngineer

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Massive Thomas Ketland Fowler
« on: September 30, 2012, 02:41:56 AM »
I just acquired this Thomas Ketland large smooth bore (.800) gun, I guess that you’d call it a fowler.   I would guess that it has been cut down; I know that it was converted to percussion.  The previous owner had done some research and he thinks it was built circa 1760 to 1770.  That’s an old gun!  There are some condition issues, mostly involving the stock hanger pins and a couple of cracks in the fore end.  The breech is massive, about two inches across, and the gun weighs about 11 pounds.  Here are a couple of close-ups and a link to the album.  I’d appreciate any comments on restoration issues, value, age etc.

Allan





http://s396.photobucket.com/albums/pp48/Vol423/Thomas%20Ketland%20ML%208GA/

« Last Edit: September 30, 2012, 02:42:49 AM by Vol423 »

Offline James Rogers

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Re: Massive Thomas Ketland Fowler
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2012, 03:33:43 AM »
Looks like a waterfowling piece. Some parts may be 1770s but I believe the stock to be later.

greybeard

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Re: Massive Thomas Ketland Fowler
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2012, 03:34:32 AM »
Now, there's a gonne that would speak with a great deal of authority in the groundhog patch!!!
Bob

Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Massive Thomas Ketland Fowler
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2012, 04:56:13 AM »
Gun appears to be made no later than 1776 when the 'hounds tooth' style of engraving went out of fashion. Also, it seems a bit premature to pronounce the gun to be a 'restocked' fowler on the basis of two very unrevealing photos. It would take more than that to convince me of that fact.
Note too, that the lock is a round faced variety which argues for a 1760s date. Can you post some more photographs of the piece?
The dates for Thomas Ketland are not hard to pin down and with the information in hand you should be able to come close. This would qualify as a goose or swan fowling piece in my opinion. Nice gun, and thank you for letting us have a look.
Dick

Offline James Rogers

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Re: Massive Thomas Ketland Fowler
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2012, 05:36:08 AM »
Hi Dick,
 
My comments are based on looking at the link the OP provided in the first post showing the gun in different poses, not just the two photos on the forum. I do not believe that stock architecture is earlier than  late 18th century at best. The shield on the wrist is later as well as the finer checkering. Both of the latter could of course be added after the fact but the butt style is the deciding factor in my opinion. The second pattern acorn and other hardware could fall within an earlier 1770s styling. Due to the secod pattern acorn, I would hesitate to put it much earlier. Lock and barrel could be of an earlier period.  Many later guns of less than high quality used NOS (new old stock) hardware.

I am very interested in more information on the 1776 date you give to the deletion of nick and dot engraving.

« Last Edit: September 30, 2012, 04:02:18 PM by James Rogers »

Offline James Rogers

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Re: Massive Thomas Ketland Fowler
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2012, 05:55:46 AM »
Neat trigger guard ;)

Offline TNVolunteerEngineer

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Re: Massive Thomas Ketland Fowler
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2012, 11:32:23 AM »
I inserted a link to a photobucket album of about 30 photos of the gun.

Here it is again:

http://s396.photobucket.com/albums/pp48/Vol423/Thomas%20Ketland%20ML%208GA/

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Massive Thomas Ketland Fowler
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2012, 08:09:50 PM »
I'm curious about the nick and dot border as well.  Are you specifically refering to Ketland not using it after 1776?  With regard to English gunmaking in general, this border engraving was used significantly later than this date.  A quick glance through Great British Gunmakers will demonstrate this.  From this source, it was certainly used at least into the 1790's.  I suspect it never fully disappeared, however.  The examples in Neal's book are of relatively high grade guns.  These were usually the pace setters and there was often a considerable lag in time for work in lower grade guns to catch up.  Also interestingly enough, Neal mentions all of the old stock present in Twigg's inventory at the time of death.  It was his feeling that guns were intended to be made from these parts.  Lines up with the comment James made.

Jim

Offline TNVolunteerEngineer

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Re: Massive Thomas Ketland Fowler
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2012, 02:26:19 AM »
This would sometning neat to drag to the Antiques Roadshow.  What value do you think they would set?

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Massive Thomas Ketland Fowler
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2012, 02:33:56 AM »
You would get better information here.

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: Massive Thomas Ketland Fowler
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2012, 01:12:08 AM »
That's a very interesting gun... I'd say one of the three oldest Ketland guns I've see thus far. I can't tell much from the pictures but does the lock read "Ketland" or "Ketland & Co."... I say that because we know that TK Sr was in partnership with William Walker as early as 1785. I'm not certain that means very much but its an interesting point. Walker's name never appears on any Ketland gun until much later. I suspect the date range the previous owner suggested is right on, which is especially good work as nothing in print and very little on the internet would help.

TK Sr went into business in 1759 or 1760. He was only 23 years old at the time but he appears to have set up shop in his own name by 1760 without serving as a journeyman in someone else's shop. There are a lot of possible reasons for this, not the least being that his father died in 1759 and he inherited some money which probably put him in a position to lease premises etc... The original shop was in Lichfield Street.

I think the most important salient point about this gun are the convex lock surfaces. TK seems to have adopted flat lock forms quite early on. Convex locks are defiantly far less commonly seen. That said, even at this point it is unlikely he actually made many of the parts. The B'ham trade was in full swing this early with specialists supplying everything. He may have finished parts and almost certainly assembled them into finished products. Unlike any of his sons, he actually referred to himself as a "gunsmith."

By 1775 he had enjoyed enough success to move to a higher rent neighborhood in what eventually became the "gun quarter" though when he moved there is was a completely new development aimed at successful tradesmen.

If you can get some good high resolution photos, I'd love to include it in my Ketland book.

Cheers,

Joe Puleo

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Massive Thomas Ketland Fowler
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2012, 01:54:12 AM »
I don't believe there is a chance this gun was stocked in the time period of 1760-1770.  As James Rogers pointed out, there are many characteristics that point to much later work. 

Jim

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: Massive Thomas Ketland Fowler
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2012, 04:21:35 AM »
I should have looked at the additional pictures first! I'm in agreement that the stocking is more likely 1790-1800. The lock is still quite early, well before those dates and the barrel may be as well.