Author Topic: Good type of font to use for engraving letters on gun ?  (Read 12637 times)

Offline Tim Hamblen

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Good type of font to use for engraving letters on gun ?
« on: October 22, 2012, 08:09:22 PM »
I'm building my grandson a new gun and want to engrave some meaningfull words on the patchbox. I've looked at several types of fonts on the Internet, hoping to snag  one I can use. I'll ask you folks,what could you recommend that a novice enrgraver could use, one that would be somewhat "easier" ? I'm thinking I should stay away from scripts of the various sorts. What can you advise ?

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Good type of font to use for engraving letters on gun ?
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2012, 08:44:12 PM »
I'm building my grandson a new gun and want to engrave some meaningfull words on the patchbox. I've looked at several types of fonts on the Internet, hoping to snag  one I can use. I'll ask you folks,what could you recommend that a novice enrgraver could use, one that would be somewhat "easier" ? I'm thinking I should stay away from scripts of the various sorts. What can you advise ?

I would use script.
Block letters are far harder to get to look right.
I strongly suggest you get Lynton McKensie's video set. It covers cutting lettering.
They can be rented here.
http://smartflix.com/store/video/457/Engraving

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Chris Treichel

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Re: Good type of font to use for engraving letters on gun ?
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2012, 08:46:27 PM »
What year is the gun related to?  You might want to check out some documents from that year and pick out letters from the document.  If its Germanic might try fractur or maybe something more English.

Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: Good type of font to use for engraving letters on gun ?
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2012, 09:14:46 PM »
I've only ever seen script and stamped block on American longrifles.  I wouldn't be embarrassed to
let  someone experienced engrave that patchbox.  It's an art all in itself and an
otherwise nice gun could look shabby after poor engraving.  My opinion and worth everything you paid for it.
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

Offline Chris Treichel

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Re: Good type of font to use for engraving letters on gun ?
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2012, 12:08:37 AM »
Ditto what Rob said...

here is a link to the picture of the "Free Born" rifle with engraved patchbox. http://www.kentuckylongrifles.com/html/free_born.html

Offline heinz

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Re: Good type of font to use for engraving letters on gun ?
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2012, 01:25:24 AM »
Tim, old rifles are found with relatively roughly done inscriptions inside the patch box lid. Something to consider if you want to do it yourself
kind regards, heinz

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Good type of font to use for engraving letters on gun ?
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2012, 01:39:31 AM »
A few other examples of block letters that come to mind are the signed Albrecht gun, the Albrecht lock, several of the Oerter rifles, and the Newcomer rifle.  I'm sure there are others though.  Might provide some ideas as to style.

Offline Tim Hamblen

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Re: Good type of font to use for engraving letters on gun ?
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2012, 02:10:20 AM »
I'm torn on this one. On one hand I have done about everything on the gun including making most of the furniture. I'd like to be the originator and finisher, fit to finish if you will, but my engraving while just OK on the regular stuff, lacks in the lettering department. I have a friend who is an accomplished engraver and will do it for me, I'll just have to ponder it.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Good type of font to use for engraving letters on gun ?
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2012, 02:33:13 AM »
I'm torn on this one. On one hand I have done about everything on the gun including making most of the furniture. I'd like to be the originator and finisher, fit to finish if you will, but my engraving while just OK on the regular stuff, lacks in the lettering department. I have a friend who is an accomplished engraver and will do it for me, I'll just have to ponder it.

Or cut practice plates till you are comfortable.
Having it done is perfectly OK. Its up to you.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

MarkEngraver

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Re: Good type of font to use for engraving letters on gun ?
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2012, 03:16:17 AM »
Script is easier to cut and make look right,
 if it's not perfect it doesn't look all that bad, it just looks like handwriting.

Block on the other hand shows every little incorrectness like a sore thumb.
The eye wants it to be square, correct , and if it isn't the eye fights with it trying to correct it.

The lettering in the Declaration of Independence is a good reference for period hand script.

Mark

Offline kutter

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Re: Good type of font to use for engraving letters on gun ?
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2012, 03:42:19 AM »
Lettering is probably one of the hardest things for most engravers to learn to do well.
 Stand -alone lettering puts the spotlight on your skills. It begs the attention of the viewer by it's very nature. Then it turns and shows the imperfections in angles, line width, height, spacing, etc.

With that said, lettering on original L/R is very often far from studio perfect. Often quite crude as is the rest of the engraving. The people that made these were just that, often the jack of all (gunsmith) trades .



One style of lettering that can be cut quite nicely with out gobs of time practicing on throw-away pieces is a slanted Roman.
If you want to cut it yourself and have some engraving skills, this would be a style I would choose.

 Cut it using all capital letters.
Larger size for the first letter of the word/name,,then smaller size, but still in capital letter form for the remainder of the word/name.
Capital letters in this style are very easy to cut.

Actually a slanted anything will quite often look better than an attempt at a perfectly straight -up cut lettering style.
It allows for slight angular mistakes that the eye doesn't bother with so much.  We don't like seeing something off the slightest when it's supposed to be perfectly vertical.
But don't take the slanted cut as a license to get sloppy when laying it out and cutting it.

Plus.. a Roman style is cut with 'caps' and 'serfs'.
Those little feet and hands on the bottom, tops and ends of the cuts. They are done last and all in a line from one end to the other of your lettering or word.
Cut right along the faint guide line dipping in and out of the steel/brass, they will form a perfect top and bottom level line to your lettering. Add the serfs to tidy up the tips of the F, T, E , ect. for length of line.

You can get fancy and use a small triangular cuts for the caps and serfs,,a wider flat for the vertical cuts, ect. Lots of things to spruce it up more, but it's just the same lettering style.

Much of the lettering on English made firearms is done in this manner,,all capitals. In both vertical and slanted Roman.  They look pretty good.


If you're going to have someone else cut it for you, the choice is only bound by that engravers skill.
You can hardly go wrong with a beautiful flowing script with a bit of extra flair perhaps added.
Your choice really, but see what styles he/she is most comfortable cutting.

If you were to be doing any engraving on the steel parts consider your final finish. A heavy barrel brown can cover up and fill in delicately cut engraving on the bbl knocking back it's effect considerably. Rust blue not nearly as much but it will matte the engraving and cut the brightness of them if they were done that way purposely. Case color won't effect the look other than the obvious.
Anything done on the brass patchbox like you're contemplating will just normally darken with handling and time.
 

 

Offline Rich

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Re: Good type of font to use for engraving letters on gun ?
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2012, 10:11:09 AM »
Take a look at Edwardian Script in Microsoft Word.

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Good type of font to use for engraving letters on gun ?
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2012, 03:48:22 PM »
Look at the free Polonaise font here....  hard to beat



http://www.fonts101.com/fonts/view/Uncategorized/20445/Polonaise


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Offline LynnC

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Re: Good type of font to use for engraving letters on gun ?
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2012, 05:32:07 PM »
Hey Kutter, Is there any way you could link us to some good examples of the slanted roman style engraved lettering? 

I have practiced quite a bit on slanted block letters and I still wouldn't sign one of my guns with it  ::)  Its Hard.

Kutter gave me a hint on what I have been doing wrong.  I was cutting the entire letter all at once and he said come back and cut all the caps and serfs.  Make sense to me.  More Practice!

Anyone up to demonstrating the technique?
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MarkEngraver

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Re: Good type of font to use for engraving letters on gun ?
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2012, 08:01:54 PM »
Try looking at it and cutting it  "upside down" .
Makes you see it in a different way, kind of like looking at drawing in a mirror , reversed, can help you see the composition from a different perspective showing errors or imbalance.

My lettering always seems to come out better when I cut it "upside down", maybe because I no longer see it as a "letter" but as a series of lines , then the right brain ( creative ) takes over from the left brain ( analytical ), go figure ?, anyway it works for me !

Kutter's absolutely right when he says 'lettering' is one of the hardest engraving disciplines to master.....

Mark

Offline RAT

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Re: Good type of font to use for engraving letters on gun ?
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2012, 11:25:25 PM »
The upside down method really works when drawing. I learned it many years ago in drafting school.

I only took one engraving class, and haven't practiced much, so I'll leave the experts to comment on it working while engraving.
Bob

Offline kutter

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Re: Good type of font to use for engraving letters on gun ?
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2012, 12:17:18 AM »
This is about as generic of a slanted Roman lettering around.

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=italicize+roman+lettering&start=0&hl=en&sa=N&rlz=1C1AFAA_enUS432US483&biw=1280&bih=685&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=WErFGlaop8JtOM:&imgrefurl=http://www.accurateimageinc.com/Cut%2520Metals/CutTimesNewRomanItalic.aspx&docid=A5PhmQzvUy-8yM&imgurl=http://www.accurateimageinc.com/Cut%252520Metals/CutMetalImages/CutTimesNewRmnItalicSet.gif&w=600&h=269&ei=jEyIUIDZBamT0QGpmIHQBA&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=173&vpy=164&dur=6596&hovh=150&hovw=336&tx=124&ty=77&sig=109076530223226293182&page=1&tbnh=108&tbnw=242&ndsp=22&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0,i:71

There's probably hundreds of sub-types,,but this is a simple form I use. You can change the shapes  a bit and angles as you want or need to. But the simplicity of the capital letters is what makes for somewhat easy lettering by an engraver. The most often done change  is making any arcs into a series of small flats. An 'O' actually becomes an octagon.
That's done for ease of cutting usually. Some find cutting the arcs difficult, and cutting many arcs in a line of lettering to match even more so. Doing them in a series of line cuts does away with that and it looks fine.

'Italics' is the trade word for 'slanted' type or lettering I guess. I've just always called it slanted, cause that's what it is,,not much for details I guess.

Another trick doing lettering,, cut all the upright cuts (verticle) first. Do all of them from beginning to the end of the line. When doing slanted text, they will be at a predetermined angle of course (an angle you choose).
Draw them in first and stay with that angle as closely as possible.
One of those small adjustable squares that allows the blade to be clamped in any angle is great to quickly slide along an octagon bbl and scribe tiny quide lines for the verticle cuts.

Get into a comfortable position to cut. It really doesn't matter when doing block or roman style lettering if you do the upright cuts from the top down or from the bottom guide line to the top guide line.
Stay in the same position as you cut them and each cut will be more uniform in angle, depth and width as you go along than if you do each one separately from different positions and angles.
You can vary a bit and cut one side of the V and A as you go along, doing the opposing side later on when you do some of the odd shapes.
It's a very fast way to letter too.

Once those are cut, go back over and cut the Horizontals. Doesn't matter if it's the tops of the letters like the E's, F's T's,,or the bottom line cutting the E's, L's, ect.  Do the bar of the A, H, P,R..
Don't cut the caps yet..just the letter parts.

Now you have the odd parts that you can do the same way by getting into a position to do them all at one time,,just fewer of them.
Do arcs of the O, D, C, ect. The smaller arcs of the P, R, B.
The 'S' gives people the most problem it seems. The B and the #8 aren't far behind.
Take your time.
Move around and complete the above letters in their rounded portions.
Remember you're doing things in portions, not trying to do an entire letter or number in one or two cuts.

As a final cut,,make all the caps from one end to the other in one run. Start at either end that is comfortable, top or bottom of the line, upside down or right side up.

You'll soon discover one way much more comfortable than another and gives a better looking finished look to the cut. It's all in how your wrist and arms turns and twists as you cut. Everyone is different so there's no one 'best' way.

Cut the caps right on the guide line. You can make them nothing more than a thin straight line over the top of each vertical. Or you can get a little fancy and with the diamond shaped point, tip that tool over toward the letter (not outside the guideline) and it will leave that triangular shaped cap on top of each verticle all in one cut.

With out lifting the tool off of the surface, let it glide forward to the next cap and again cut in and out. Triangle shape if you want,,straight thin line if you don't. Move it forward again,,till you come to the end of the lettering.
Only lift the tool off the surface and jump space between words. The tool should leave nothing more than a guide line type scratch between the caps you are cutting.
By keeping it on the surface you are insuring a nice straight  top and bottom line to your lettering. Even if you verticals weren't perfectly cut to the guide lines,,the caps will make them appear as so.

After cutting the caps,,cut the serfs,,the tiny vertical hands off the ends of the horitontal lettering elements.
They do the same thing as caps in that they make nice even line lengths.
In any slanted lettering work,,make the serfs cut at the same angle as the vertical elements of the lettering you've cut. The serfs are very short, but if they aren't cut at the slight angle they won't look right. If they are cut at too much of an angle to the verticals,,they will look better than too little.

Remember that cutting all capital letters is easier than using lower case in roman or block lettering. Just use small size capitals for the 'lower case'. It's been done that way for a long time.
Don't squeeze the lettering,,,draw it out with plenty of room. The caps can be quite long and they will enhance the look of the lettering. Bunching letters too tightly together then trying to squeeze the caps and serfs in there looses it's effect.

Offline mark esterly

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Re: Good type of font to use for engraving letters on gun ?
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2012, 02:39:44 AM »
very good instructional post kutter but serf are people in servitude.  the little lines are serifs  :) 
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Offline LynnC

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Re: Good type of font to use for engraving letters on gun ?
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2012, 05:02:07 AM »
Thanks Kutter, I'm gonna have to print that............and Practice
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Offline kutter

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Re: Good type of font to use for engraving letters on gun ?
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2012, 12:14:17 AM »
very good instructional post kutter but serf are people in servitude.  the little lines are serifs  :) 
Like I said in the post ,,I'm not much for details. Gotta admit I was pretty close on the spelling.
I never even heard lettering styles called a 'font' till a few years ago.
That's what you get for learning on your own..

So,,,,Don't ever get into contract engraving,,you'll feel like a 'serf'!.

Thanks for the correction,,I can always learn something..

Offline mark esterly

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Re: Good type of font to use for engraving letters on gun ?
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2012, 12:58:59 AM »
when you work 35 years in a place like i do you'll know you're one, aka slave. i also worked for some time doing lettering for a textile place and sign painting. when i heard that word i used to think of that actor omar  :D
now if i can figure out how to turn off this bold type i'll be ok
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 01:10:08 AM by mark esterly »
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Offline PPatch

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Re: Good type of font to use for engraving letters on gun ?
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2012, 01:35:27 AM »
Mark;

Kutter's post (tutorial) on lettering was great, as a new to engraving type, I will save it also, Thank you Kutter. One aspect he touched on
I would like to emphasise - don't crowd the lettering, when you study documents note not only the shape of the letters but the spaces in between.
I will add too that you should count the letters in a word or a phrase and choose one as the center letter then go left and right to know where
to start and end - taking into account the letter spacing. How do I know - Spent 35 years as a graphic designer and dealing with typography
was something I had to do almost daily.

Good luck with your project.

dave
Dave Parks   /   Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Offline kutter

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Re: Good type of font to use for engraving letters on gun ?
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2012, 05:07:36 AM »
Very good point about the center starting point of each line.
After you lay out the guide lines, mark the center of your lettering and the outside limits if any.

Start laying out the word(s), name, ect from that center point forwards and backwards to the left and right side limits.
If you just start laying them out from left to right, you'll be at it all day making it space and end up on the right hand side correctly.
You might get lucky of course, but usually your brain will just be telling you to increase or decrease the spacing as you near the end to make things fit.
Won't look too good when cut and viewed.
Better to space things out from the center in both directions if you have outside limits or want to balance lines of lettering over each other.

Counting letters & spaces for the entire line to get a center position, you also have to take into account that some letters
take up more space than others,  a large Capital letter takes more space than the same capital letter done in a reduced size on
the same line.
Don't forget punctuation to. It seems as though you could just slip a comma or period in
between two words if need with ordinary spacing,,but it will usually show, Allow a bit of extra.

So it may take a few trys to get it to space correctly. So what..Don't be in such a hurry that 'good enough' is the time to start cutting.
Really tough to burnish or polish those letters out to correct mistakes even if you cut them real lightly.

Lightly scribe the guide lines. Cross polish the surface first lightly to make it show up for you even better.
Then use a pencil to lay out the letters themselves.
Unless you get lucky, you'll most likely be wiping them clear and laying them out a few times to get them looking & spaced right.
The lightly scribed guide lines stay there for you though it all so you don't have to recalculate where to put them each
time you start over,,plus they're ultra thin to get the cut lines right up to where you want them.

I usually leave the letters themselves just penciled in for the cutting, but nothing wrong with lightly scribing them in too if it helps
you to see them better.  
If you do scribe them into the steel or brass, make them very precise, or you'll have tiny scriber marks that'll look like scratches
all around the engraving cuts you make and they're miserable to remove.
A lightly scribed guide line will blend and disappear with the top and bottom lines of the lettering,,especially when using the caps (and serifs! :>)
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 07:32:56 AM by kutter »