Author Topic: Fake Damascus?  (Read 11324 times)

gunsports

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Fake Damascus?
« on: October 07, 2012, 05:25:47 PM »
I am planning the build of an English sporting rifle (31", 62 cal, swamped octagonal) and a damascus barrel would seem a great idea for this gun. Except, I don't have a damascus barrel! Is there any way one can 'fake' a damascus finish on a barrel? (Barrel will be rust browned.) If so, has anyone tried it and would you care to share the process?


4ster

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Re: Fake Damascus?
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2012, 05:54:58 PM »
I am not very experienced building, but unfortunately that doesn't stop me from having an opinion.

I like this group because most people here are trying to create objects that are true to the period.  I almost always do not like things that are made to look like something they are not.  I love the beauty of a Damascus steel barrel, I also think I could spot a fake from a mile away and that would spoil the gun for me.

So, I guess I could see it if in the time period there were fake Damascus finishes. Given the state of the human heart, trying try to pull the wool over the eyes of "mark" was common in any age, so I would guess that a process for fake Damascus exists.

Fake tiger striping in stocks was done in period pieces.  I still don't like it, even though it is period correct.  But that is just me.


 
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 06:00:02 PM by 4ster »

4ster

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Re: Fake Damascus?
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2012, 06:05:44 PM »
However you are not asking IF it should be done but HOW.  I googled and here are some comments on how it was done:
http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/2010/06/barrel-making-fake-damascus-barrels.html

There is a link in the page that takes you to other pages on the history and manufacture of real damascus barrels that I found fascinating.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 06:57:51 PM by 4ster »

SuperCracker

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Re: Fake Damascus?
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2012, 06:28:20 PM »

So, I guess I could see it if in the time period there were fake Damascus finishes. Given the state of the human heart, trying try to pull the wool over the eyes of "mark" was common in any age, so I would guess that a process for fake Damascus exists.
 

FWIW, Not exactly in the time period, but I have a set of (probably) very late 19th C 12ga double barrels that have a fake swirl damascus pattern. It looks like it might have been stamped on after the barrels were finished. No idea what medium could have been used for the stamping.

In say, 1850, I doubt there was because I don't think they had fluid barrels by then. So there would have been no reason to have to fake it.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 06:31:16 PM by SuperCracker »

SuperCracker

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Re: Fake Damascus?
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2012, 06:34:03 PM »
However you are not asking IF it should be done but HOW.  I googled and here are some comments on how it was done:
http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/2010/06/barrel-making-fake-damascus-barrels.html


Hmmmm, now I see that it was clearly a decal. Thanks.

Offline bgf

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Re: Fake Damascus?
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2012, 06:34:51 PM »
I've seen several good examples on ALR in the past of simulated Damascus, but I can't locate them right now.  I would think it should be something like tie-dying -- mask off a pattern and etch with acid, possibly changing the pattern mask multiple times for more variety.  Unless you are very wealthy or extremely lucky, fake is about the only way to get a good, safe "Damascus" barrel.

Offline smart dog

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Re: Fake Damascus?
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2012, 06:55:27 PM »
Hi,
Do a search for damascus or twist barrels on this site.  This has been discussed many times.  The first thing you need to know is that English sporting guns from the 18th and early 19th centuries did not have damascus barrels.  The high-end guns had "twist" or "stub twist" barrels, which were made differently and look very different from  damascus barrels.

dave
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Offline DutchGramps

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Re: Fake Damascus?
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2012, 09:48:04 PM »
Just buy the real McCoy: www.peterdyson.co.uk , only GBP 320,-.
Only needs some filing and rifling. ;D ;D
Real bikes are kick-started....

Offline Dave B

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Re: Fake Damascus?
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2012, 10:31:07 PM »
I know that Jerry Huddleston used several of these from Peter Dyson and they look great when done. I believe they are for shot gun barrels but could have a rifle insert installed to get your caliber of choice.
Dave Blaisdell

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Fake Damascus?
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2012, 11:26:27 PM »
See if you can contact George Suiter,gunmaker at Colonial Williamsburg.
He made a superb replica of an Alex Henry sporting target rifle with a
Damascus barrel that Ed Rayl rifled with the Henry system of rifling.I made
a 4 screw lock for this project that I am proud to have displayed on such a
rifle.

Bob Roller

Offline Jerry V Lape

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Re: Fake Damascus?
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2012, 03:05:49 AM »
There were some larger pistols made by Deringer with patterns put on by chemical rusting.  It appears they were possibily coated with a wax, then the pattern cut through the wax and the browning/bluing chemical applied to the uncoated areas.  Probably had several layers of these with recoating and cutting again to produce pretty complex pattern.  There is a pair of such pistols on page 91 of R.L. Wilson's STEEL CANVAS.  Not exactly damascus but the color contrasts are quite attractive.

BartSr

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Re: Fake Damascus?
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2012, 08:53:36 AM »
I hear that mustard is used by knife makers to make patterns into steel. Maybe mustard could be used to colorize anything you desired.

Paul

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Fake Damascus?
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2012, 03:02:04 PM »
For bringing out damascus twist:

From Bill Brockway, 10/2007
Bill Brockway
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Posted - 09/20/2007 :  16:38:27  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
For the several people who asked for copies of Dr. Gaddy's recipe, I am posting the following, which is the way I do it (several small variations from Dr. Gaddy's process; for instance, I use a ready-mixed browning solution - don't have to fool with dangerous chemicals that can burn the skin or make your teeth fall out. Anyway, here's how I do it:

The browning method I am using now is a process developed by Dr. Oscar Gaddy, a university professor from Illinois. Briefly, it works as follows:

1 - Polish the barrels to 400 grit or finer (400 is usually enough). If you have tested the barrels with acid, this area will have to be polished bright again, before proceeding.

2 - Apply a diluted solution of Laurel Mountain Forge Browner and Degreaser (see below).

3 - Hang barrels in a warm, humid location until a coating of rust forms (may take 4 hours to overnight, depending on ambient temperature and humidity).

4 - Dip rusted barrels in a 15% solution of Radio Shack circuit board etchant and water (I keep a capped piece of 3" PVC pipe as a dipping tank). Dip for no longer than 5 seconds (important)! That's 15% RS etchant (a solution of Ferric Chloride and water) and 85% water. I am lucky enough to live where the tap water is almost chemically pure. It may be necessary for people in other psrts of the country to use distilled water.

5 - Immediately after dipping, flush barrels clean with a garden hose and lots of water. I do this outside my shop in the yard. It is important to stop the etchant from working any longer than 5 or 10 seconds.

6. - Card (scrub down barrels) with medium steel wool under water. This will make the pattern begin to appear.

7 - Repeat steps 2 through 6 until the barrels are dark enough to suit you. This may take a lot of passes, maybe as many as 8 or 10.

In step 2, dilute the LMF with 2 parts water for the 1st pass only. The next couple of passes can be 5 parts water to 1 part LMF. After that, the remaining passes can be 8 - 10 parts water to 1 part LMF. I no longer use the browner diluted any more than this. The dip in Radio Shack etchant serves to remove the rust from the white striations without affecting the brown striations. If you prefer a black and white finish, boil the barrels for 5 minutes after step 6.
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline smokinbuck

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Re: Fake Damascus?
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2012, 12:59:29 AM »
What you are trying to do is not that difficult. I have a friend that did a barrel with the usual etching process we use for aging, cold blue & bleach, and came up with a beautiful diagonal rotating patterm. It comes from the application of the bleach with a dauber, as opposed to using a dipping tube which applies the bleach overall. Remember, some of what are taken for original damascus barrels were only an etched pattern, roses swirls stripes etc.
Mark
Mark

Offline heelerau

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Re: Fake Damascus?
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2012, 10:16:41 AM »
Just buy the real McCoy: www.peterdyson.co.uk , only GBP 320,-.
Only needs some filing and rifling. ;D ;D

 I have bought stuff from Peter Dyson, he is fine to deal with.  He has a heap of new old stock damascus barrels, presumably smooth bore.

Cheers

Gordon
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Offline Rolf

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Re: Fake Damascus?
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2012, 07:25:40 PM »
Has anyone tried to use one Dyson's Damascus pistol barrels, without lining them?

I know Jerry Huddelstone has used them, but he has always lined them to be on the safe side.
I've been sorely tempted to buy one, but I doubt I'm skilled enough to do a nice looking(invisible) line job.

Best regards
Rolf

Offline James Wilson Everett

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Re: Fake Damascus?
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2012, 02:38:15 PM »
Guys,

Here is an original octagon double barrel I am working on that has artificial twist iron stripes.  They appear to be a surface applied as the darker stripes are more shiny than the lighter ones.  Either the darker stripes are an applied varnish like substance, or the lighter stripes are etched to be not so shiny.  Notice that the stripes do not continue across the sighting rim surface from the barrels.





I am assuming that the stripes are some sort of applied varnish, so I must be sure to not apply heat to the barrels.  I need to replace a missing thimble, so I will probably use an epoxy to do this.

Jim
« Last Edit: December 10, 2019, 12:31:02 AM by James Wilson Everett »

Offline smart dog

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Re: Fake Damascus?
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2012, 06:23:32 PM »
Hi,
Click on the link below and scroll down to page 2 where I describe my process:

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=8046.15

dave
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doug

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Re: Fake Damascus?
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2012, 11:01:36 PM »
    I unintentionally created an etched diagonal pattern on a rifle barrel.  I was having a hard time getting the rust to stick because I was carding dry instead of wet.  Anyway, being super genius, :>)  :>)    I decided to wrap the barrel with strips of cloth to hold the moisture and let the rust penetrate more.  Net effect was that where the cloth overlapped, the area stayed wet longer and rusted deeper.  Net result was a diagonal striped pattern.   While these stripes were fairly wide I would suspect if you played with the principle and tried wrapping with string for example, you might be able to get fairly close set diagonal lines.

    I am not convinced that fake damascus (as in pattern welded) barrels are as common as many believe.  Cartridge shotgun barrels with "damascus pattern" stamped on the rib certainly are but some of the cheap ugly looking patterns with high contrast that look phony are actually pattern welded.   I have rebrowned a number of pattern welded barrels (for my own use) and after draw filing and sanding these cheap looking barrels, the pattern has reappeared with the browning.

cheers Doug

doug

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Re: Fake Damascus?
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2012, 11:13:14 PM »
The first thing you need to know is that English sporting guns from the 18th and early 19th centuries did not have damascus barrels.  The high-end guns had "twist" or "stub twist" barrels, which were made differently and look very different from  damascus barrels.

    Seems to be the endless debate of whether to use the modern terminology (where all patterns are called damascus) or the period terminology separating damascus and twist.  Ironically twist barrels if I remember correctly had the skelp simply wrapped (twisted) around a mandril as opposed to damascus in which the skelp was twisted before wrapping.

    whichever way you want to call it, here is a photo of a Lancaster barrel presumably from the 1840s.



     Below is a barrel by Reeves



     and finally one by E&W Bond



cheers Doug
« Last Edit: October 14, 2012, 01:08:08 AM by doug »