Author Topic: Source for Kasenit?  (Read 13943 times)

4ster

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Source for Kasenit?
« on: October 31, 2012, 05:33:39 PM »
I'm having problems finding Kasenit.  I think I saw someone's post on the interweb that it was discontinued.  Is this correct? 

If so, what is the alternative.  Right now I am planning to treat a frizzen to get it to spark better.

Offline James

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Re: Source for Kasenit?
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2012, 06:34:53 PM »
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined... The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun." P.Henry

Offline RAT

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Re: Source for Kasenit?
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2012, 06:41:26 PM »
I checked Brownell's online catalog... it doesn't come up on a search. A search of MidwayUSA hits on a product called "cherry red". I did a general google search and read some postings about Kasenit no longer being produced. Some mentioned "cherry red" and a product called "hard-n-tuff". I've never tried either of the latter.
Bob

billd

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Re: Source for Kasenit?
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2012, 07:12:56 PM »
MSC,  McMasters, Grainger   

4ster

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Re: Source for Kasenit?
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2012, 03:43:03 PM »
Thanks for your help.  Ordered some from MBS from the link.

I think it is no longer produced.  An internet search found a pdf of instructions on Track of the Wolf's site; their sites search box did not return anything for Kasenit offered as a product.  I ran into the "Cherry Red" when searching for Kasenit as well. 

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Source for Kasenit?
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2012, 04:04:19 PM »
found it here the other day but have not called them
http://www.rsci.com/kasenit-compound-1-6161.html
It is out of production from the rumors I have heard.

Dan
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Offline kutter

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Re: Source for Kasenit?
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2012, 08:00:44 AM »
I've used that stuff for years and years.  Sad if they stop making it as it always worked well for me.

Kasenit is Yellow Prussiate of Soda( Sodium Ferrocyanide.)
Sounds terrible and most likely is if you eat the stuff or smoke the fumes for fun.
 But handling it responsibly and safely like anything else we use in the hobby/business is common sense.
I don't think adding any to acid into the powder is a good idea though from the sounds of the chemical name.
I seem to recall some old gunsmithing books giving a quick surface hardening compound recipe that used a Prussiate of Soda,,,nothing is really new I guess.

That Cherry Red Surface Hardening Compound is something I've never used. Sounds the same, so I looked it up. It's a different chemical makeup altogether,,good old potassium nitrate and chromium oxide compound of some sort.

Hope it works as good.


Offline DutchGramps

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Re: Source for Kasenit?
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2012, 05:35:50 PM »
If you need some, I can send it from the Netherlands: about $50 for a pound from a web shop ;D
Real bikes are kick-started....

Offline draken

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Re: Source for Kasenit?
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2012, 09:32:56 AM »
I remember reading somewhere a long time ago, that sugar could be used for surface hardening steel   Sounded rather far-fetched and I've never tried it, as my dwindling supply of Kasenite will still last longer than I will.   

Seriously though, do you suppose sugar would actually work? :-\
Dick 

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Offline bgf

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Re: Source for Kasenit?
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2012, 10:48:41 PM »
I remember reading somewhere a long time ago, that sugar could be used for surface hardening steel   Sounded rather far-fetched and I've never tried it, as my dwindling supply of Kasenite will still last longer than I will.   

Seriously though, do you suppose sugar would actually work? :-\

Interesting -- isn't sugar pretty much pure carbon when burned?  It might work well.

Offline Jim Hart

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Re: Source for Kasenit?
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2012, 01:57:26 AM »
Brownell's current catalogue lists a "surface hardening compound"   #083-000-033AH  page 396.  From the description it does the same as Kasenit.

Offline kutter

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Re: Source for Kasenit?
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2012, 03:28:39 AM »
Brownell's current catalogue lists a "surface hardening compound"   #083-000-033AH  page 396.  From the description it does the same as Kasenit.

Looks like it may be re-packaged 'Cherry Red Surface Hardening Compound'

The back of the container ingredients reads:   Contains Potassium nitrate,
Chromium (III) oxide. http://www.brownells.com/userdocs/learn/076-100-422.pdf
Same as the MSDS for the Cherry Red brand.

The price looks about the same /per pound as others are selling it, even a bit lower in some instances.
A few advertise that their's is repackaged into 1lb containers.



dagner

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Re: Source for Kasenit?
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2012, 10:48:33 AM »
track of the wolf
dag

4ster

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Re: Source for Kasenit?
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2012, 06:07:30 PM »
track of the wolf
dag
Go to TOW and do a search for Kasenit and see what turns up.  At least I can't find it offered for sale there. (I did find a nice pdf of instructions for using Kasenit to harden a frizzen face.)

The link in the post right after my initial post does sell it, although it is repackaged in a smaller container.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 06:08:33 PM by 4ster »

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Source for Kasenit?
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2012, 08:05:32 PM »
Quote
The back of the container ingredients reads:   Contains Potassium nitrate,
Chromium (III) oxide. http://www.brownells.com/userdocs/learn/076-100-422.pdf
IF the purpose of hardening is to add carbon to the surface; AND if none of the above compounds contain any carbon; THEN one must deduce that it is depositing a layer of chromium on the surface.

Rebuttal witnesses please reply using your own fuzzy logic.
Dave Kanger

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Offline JCKelly

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Re: Source for Kasenit?
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2012, 04:37:59 AM »
There is more to case hardening (case carburizing) than just having some form of carbon around.

One mix used decades ago by an American file maker was potassium ferrocyanide, K4Fe(CN)6, mixed with bone black (bone charcoal), salt and some flour to hold it together. They called it "cyanide loaf" Lovely name. The salt cleans or activates the surface so the carbon can get across the surface into the metal. Carbon, and a touch of nitrogen, come from both the ferrocyanide and the bone charcoal.

Ferrocyanide is not so deadly as is potassium cyanide, just don't eat it & do wash your hands afterwards.

I always liked to chat with people when in their heat treat shops, dealing with one or the other problem they associated with the high temperature alloys my employer sold. One can pick up interesting tidbits, one of the more profitable$$ being in complete opposition to what I was taught in school.

About four centuries ago the mix was about equal amounts of ground glass, salt (together they activate the surface nicely), ground dried ox hooves (for both carbon and nitrogen) and a bunch of chimney soot (for carbon). It worked fine but we are all supposed to laugh at 300+ year old technology, so use the modern ferrocyanide. I do suppose it better anyway.

I might suggest save the sugar for your coffee (or mash) and the chromium oxide to make nice green paint. Go with ferrocyanide (NOT ferricyanide), bone charcoal/soot and salt.

Oh yeah . . . "clean the surface", "activate the surface" Metallurgically, the limitation to get carburizing to happen is to get that carbon to actually diffuse across the surface. Don't ask me why but I sure know it to be true. I believe that is why both Old Nicholson and the guys in 1589 used some salt. It melts, and leaves the metal surface open to whatever can happen to it. Kinda like a flux, you might say.

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Source for Kasenit?
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2012, 06:23:48 PM »
Quote
There is more to case hardening (case carburizing) than just having some form of carbon around.
JC
Don't know if you were responding to my post or just responding in general.  However, all your examples included carbon bearing compounds.  Any thoughts on my logic?
Dave Kanger

If religion is opium for the masses, the internet is a crack, pixel-huffing orgy that deafens the brain, numbs the senses and scrambles our peer list to include every anonymous loser, twisted deviant, and freak as well as people we normally wouldn't give the time of day.
-S.M. Tomlinson

Offline bgf

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Re: Source for Kasenit?
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2012, 02:36:30 AM »
JCK,
I'm curious why the carbon in sugar in combination with other surface activation and "coloring" (for lack of a better word) agents wouldn't be as efficient as other sources?  In the old days, bone meal (or charcoal) was probably cheap and plentiful but refined sugar was somewhat rare and costly.  Today, we have the reverse situation, with refined sugar being easy to find and quite affordable in the quantities a hobbyist would need.  I'm just curious, as there is a big can of Kasenit somewhere around here, and I don't see running out soon!

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Source for Kasenit?
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2012, 10:18:34 PM »
T.O.F & bgf

First, in order to harden/case harden the surface of mild steel one must add carbon. Not to be too much of a smart a--, but that is 3000 year old technology.

I personally have NO knowledge of using sugar, saltpeter and chromium oxide. Makes no sense whatsoever to me. This of course does not mean it won't work, it does mean that I won't bother with it.

I DO know how pack carburizing has been done commercially in the 18th through 20th centuriesa. It always meant packing the parts in some form of ground up charcoal or soot. 200 years ago, or today, commercial guys are interested in speeding up this process or in some manner making it more efficient. Some rather carefull work by an 18th century Frenchman showed that sea salt and pigeon dung helped. For real. Bone charcoal is what can give pretty case colors, I personally suspect it  began to be used because it sped up the process, or make it more uniform, colors being a nice secondary thing someone observed. A couple decades ago pack hardening compound could still be obtained from Park Chemical. They, and other 20th century guys, added barium carbonate to the charcoal make the process go faster.

Wood charcoal, the stuff actually made from a tree, think they call it "Cowboy somethingorother" is pretty @!*% available at the grocery store. Or, one can use the stuff pet stores sell to filter water for your aquarium.

The popular brand of charcoal briquettes includes petroleum coke, which means it contains sulfur, which will do you no good. I do recall that the last barrel of Park Chemical case carburizing compound, bought from Canada, had the smell of sulfur & I would not chose it for delicate or finely finished work. Yes, I know this from sloppy experience.