forged triggergaurd

[David R. Pennington]

I'm wondering about how the forward attachment lug would have been made on original forged iron triggerguards. I usually end up welding or brazing them on and since I don't have any originals to study I wondered if anyone ever has noticed. The one I'm working on now I brazed on.
Another related question is about the curl at the rear of the grip rail. Before I split the stock and then forged but on this one I forgewelded two pieces together. Easier than hack sawing. Again any one have any input on how they would have done it originally?

[cmac]

Not 100% sure on originals but most of the new ones I've seen are staked through. Strong and if done well its not really noticeable. Hershel House stakes them in his video, I can't remember if he states that is the way they are done originally or not

[Dennis Glazener]

I'm wondering about how the forward attachment lug would have been made on original forged iron triggerguards. I usually end up welding or brazing them on and since I don't have any originals to study I wondered if anyone ever has noticed. The one I'm working on now I brazed on.
Another related question is about the curl at the rear of the grip rail. Before I split the stock and then forged but on this one I forgewelded two pieces together. Easier than hack sawing. Again any one have any input on how they would have done it originally?

You can look at an original tg by Mathew Gillespie here:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=8015.0 The guard photos are close to the last ones.
Dennis

[Mark Elliott]

Most iron guards are probably screwed front and back.  However,  where i have wanted a lug, I have staked it.   It is quick and easy and won't come loose.   Also,  if it is well done,  there is no way you can tell it wasn't welded.    It is a period correct method whereas brazing that part wasn't.   I would stick to staking.   As to the only forge weld most folks do on a guard, the grip rail spur,  the normal method is fold over a piece of 1/2"x1/8" or 1/2"x3/16" (this is what I use) weldable steel.  You clean with a wire brush before closing the fold, but leave  a little opening.    Put it back in the fire bring up to bright red or orange.   Pull it out and heavily flux with borax including in the slightly open loop.   I like to have the whole loop encased in molten borax.    Put is back in the fire bring back up to bright red.   Take it out,   hammer the loop closed and reflux the joint.  Put the piece back in the fire until it is up to welding temperature.   That is when the weld area starts looking like butter.   Take out and give the weld some quick, light blows and proceed to shape the spur some.    Put the piece back in the fire bring to orange,  clamp the spur in a vise and spread the ends out.   Hopefully, you have a weld that holds.   If not throw that piece of steel away and start over.    With weldable,  mild steel,  you only have one shot to get it right.    Wrought iron is more forgiving in all sorts of ways.

[whetrock]

In more common terms, people generally think of staking as a type of riveting. It is a way to make a joint between two pieces of metal. In staking one of the pieces has a post (called a boss) that passes through a hole in the other piece. The boss is slightly undersized, so that will slip through the hole. Once the boss is in place, it is smashed out in such a way as to completely fill the hole and press tightly against the hole all along its length. The hole usually also has a countersink, and the boss is smashed out so as to fill the countersunk hole. When making a trigger guard, the boss is usually just smashed out with a hammer.  (If working on small delicate item, like a watch or silver cup, a special tool called a staking punch may be used. The special punches help the smith avoid damaging the surrounding surface.)

Strictly speaking, a staked joint is different from a simple rivet. A rivet is not part of either piece, but is instead just an independent piece of rod that links the two pieces together. And in making a simple rivet head, the boss is not necessarily made to fit tightly along its length.

In making a staked lug, the smith will saw and file the lug so as to make a post (boss). He will drill a hole in the extension of the trigger guard. The boss should be able to slip through with a gentle tap from the hammer. The guard is then flipped upside down and the lug is securely clamped in a vise. The boss is then smashed out with a series of blows. Once the boss is smashed out so as to completely fill the countersink, then the excess can be filed off smooth with the surface of the guard.

The lugs on both extensions of the guard are made the same way.

I’ve always (only) done this with the pieces cold. This seems to help keep the hole from expanding as the boss is smashed. I can imagine situations in which it might be done hot, but I’ve never needed to do it hot when working with something as small as a trigger guard. Maybe other’s have different experience. (Comments anyone?)

Some people worry about the boss slipping or turning in the hole, and so they think they need to braze or silver solder it in place, but that’s not really necessary with a trigger guard. The lug is wedged up inside the stock and both ends of the guard are pinned down, so the guard and lug never experience any torque. The joint might break if you had to use the rifle as a club to fight off a grizzly (hmmm)… but in that case you would have more serious problems anyway! Provided it has a good countersink, it usually never budges.

Here’s a sketch. I’ve drawn the guard right-side-up, but keep in mind that most of the work is actually done with the guard upside down. (It’s just easier to understand if you can view it right-side up.)

[Yancey von Yeast]

Awesome explanation and sketch! 

[Gaeckle]

I pretty much do the same, but....when I make the pin on the lug I file a taper so that the tip is smaller than the base. I use a drill index to see what size drill will work at about the right area to grab the pin. I also leave my pin a tad bit longer than needed as I can always remove any extra's.

I do not make a counter sink and use the ball peen end of my hammer to start and finish up with a chissel with a blunted edge to seat it. Done properly, the lug will never move.

[B.Habermehl]

I have put lots of lugs on guards this way, however I will usually soft solder the underside as well after staking the parts together. Just my belt and suspenders approach.   Several of the cast triggerguards out there just about require moving the lugs.  BJH

[whetrock]

BJH, I'm glad you mentioned this. I've not done this with brass guards, but I know people do use this technique when moving a lug on a brass guard, just like they use it to install a lug on a newly forged iron guard. But, yeah, I would think that with a brass guard, soldering it at the base of the lug would be a good idea. When I made my comment above about solder not really being necessary, I was really just thinking about iron/soft steel guards, and not brass. Thanks.

[David R. Pennington]

I love this forum! Great answers! Thanks guys. I've staked parts together before but don't know why I didn't think of staking the lugs. Makes perfect sense.
Mark, thanks for the welding info. I was afraid of forge welding for a long time till my blacksmith friend / mentor guided me through the process and now I find it usefull for a lot of assembly problems. I had not any experience with wrought iron till recently. I found some old 2 inch bars that I salvadged off some old doors from a building built around 1930. It appears to be wrought iron and I tried welding up an axe head with it with a plow steel bit inserted. Wow! It welded beautifully with the steel sqeezed out like cheese on a hot sandwich.

[Jim Kibler]

I've seen the tabs on English fowling pieces attached by basically the same method they would attach a lug to a barrel.  Cut a slot, upset the ends, put a T-shaped piece of material in place, clinch the raised material over and finally braze in place.  As I said, the end result looked very much like a lug you see on an English barrel of the period.

[G-Man]

Has anyone ever examined how it was done on the Bogle rifle?  That one is pinned - I have not noticed any evidence of a riveted/staked lug on the guard finials, but it might be well hidden - on the other hand as nicely as that rifle is executed I could see it being done the way Jim described as well.  Does anyone know:

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=11592.0

[David R. Pennington]

I have looked well at all those pictures as that is the rifle I am basing my current build on. It is often difficult to discern that kind of detail from photos. Staking isn't evident but if it was done well perhaps the patina and or finish would obscure it's detection in photo images. 

[David R. Pennington]

I just looked again at those pics and noticed something else. If you look at the left side of the side panel there is a pin hole which I assume is for triggergaurd lug that is almost perfectlly lined up with the front edge of the guard bow. This would have been a difficult spot to stake a lug unless the lug is longer and is staked more forward of the bow. Also appears that the gaurd is attached with lug in rear as well.

[G-Man]

It is attached with a lug in the rear.  And good point about how the forward pin aligns right at the front of the guard bow so I agree it is not likely staked/riveted.  Perhaps something more like Jim described seeing on English guns - there would be good thickness of metal there to work work with at that location. 

I have handled that rifle a number of times but have never seen the guard off the gun.

Guy

[bgf]

One possibility on the Bogle that I've speculated on is that the guard bow is run up through the front return, brazed (?) in, and the upper part used as a lug.

[whetrock]

On the Bogle rifles, I'm gonna bet on a forge weld. Here's a sketch... What do you guys think? Anyone willing to give it a try on the anvil? (I don't have time right now)



I don't mean to suggest that this is indeed the way Mr. Bogle pulled it off. But he did do some pretty nice forge work on that guard. He did have some pretty well developed blacksmith skills.

[Mark Elliott]

If you know for a fact that the Bogle guard looks like your drawing, then I don't think it was a weld.   I think the tab was just hammered out of extra metal at the bend.   If you execute a correct right angle bend with a thick enough piece of bar stock,  all you have to do is hammer perpendicular to the bend and thin out the bow at that point creating a bulge top and bottom.    You work the bottom bulge into the bow.   You stretch out the top bulge a little, then file a tab out of it.   I think someone with really good hammer control could pretty well forge that tab.   

[G-Man]

When you look at the iron work on a lot of these guns it is clear how good many of these guys were so Mark's theory makes sense.  I have seen several iron mounted American longrifles of that era with pinned guards and that have the lug right in that same spot.

Guy

[whetrock]

I'm just guessing about the shape of the lug itself. But the forward extension does have a slight lip (bulge back into the bow area). The images show that. So maybe Mark's guess is right. (?) The way the lip relates to the post might suggest that Bogle did start with a substantial piece of material.

Some southern rifles (esp. simple mountain rifles) don't have a lip, and when they don't it usually means that the smith just made a simple 90 degree bend and didn't try to do anything complicated.

On his blacksmithing video, Hershel House makes a lip, but does it by forging the extension flat while it is in line with the post, then bends the flat extension over at the lip. That gives him a nice shoulder at the top of the post, but sometimes leaves a visible joint between the top of the post and the extension. I mention that just to point out that Hershel's technique would not leave material from which to make a lug.

Here's a excerpt of an image from Hershel's book (the book at comes with the blacksmithing video. Note the shape of the post in Hershel’s sketch and how it relates to the forward extension. Then compare that to the shape of the post on the Bogle guard.



Bogle's technique seems to be different from Hershel’s. It looks to me like he just bent the extension down at 90 degrees (like Mark is suggesting) and forged the lip (or filed it) in place. This technique gives a very solid transition from the top of the post into the forward extension. There seems to be no visible joint. (And, as Mark suggests, it could have left him enough material there to form a lug.)

(By the way, I hope everyone understands that I'm not suggesting that one technique is better than another or that one is more authentic than another! I’m just pointing out some differences in the results. If you are trying to recreate the feel of an antique rifle, then you should use the technique used by that school. Understanding the various techniques available will help you to pull that off successfully.)

Here are excerpts of the images showing the lip and location of the pin on the Bogle. These images are excerpts from a post on this forum:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=11592.0
(and thanks to G-Man for calling our attention to these! )

[bgf]

I'm tempted by the idea of the tab forged from the bar stock after the bend was made, but I keep going back to the thing that made me think otherwise in the first place: The front return extends behind the triggerplate a fair bit.  While it isn't unimaginable that this could be done solely by forging, it makes me a least want to consider seriously that the bow and return were separate pieces at one time and then joined.  Putting a hole in the plate and then extending the bow upright through it seems to me to be at least a possibility, and the extension of the bow above the plate could be subsequently forged into a lug very easily.  Just to be clear, I am advancing this observation not so much for argument as discussion ! 

[KentSmith]

One technique Frank House showed me and said it was how he made the majority of the guards similar to the one in the above illustration.  Works best with wrought iron worked hot. I do not know if I can explain it but here goes.  Forge the forward tang from a piece of 1/4x1/2 by hammering on edge.  When done the forward tang is at 90 degrees from the rest of the stock, then hammer the bow on edge and spread the metal out leaving a 3/8 inch section between the tang and bow alone.That would leave ample metal for a lug and the small extension at the bend.  When the 90 degree is bent at the tang bow transition you can work the metal up into a lug above the tang as well as the flattened post.

Does this make any sense?

[whetrock]

bgf,
It is a possibility. I build my first rifle using that technique, and it worked out fine. At the time I didn't own an anvil or forge. With technique you are describing I could do the work with a drill and a MAP gas torch in my garage. It worked out okay. If I was going to use it again, I would be sure that the post was driven very tightly into the forward extension (tang), and only braze the top side. That would help avoid having a visible brazed joint. With the one I made, I used silver solder and I ended up with a visible line. (But I was still very proud of that rifle!)

Kent, it sounds like what you are describing is a version of the method Mark described. I wish we had some pictures of it in progress, step by step...

Whetrock