54 cal Perc Load development help

[inthealders]

I just put a brand new OEM barrel on my Lyman Trade rifle - 1:48 in twist.
I am getting horrible groups (8 inches @ 100 yds) using all four combinations of bullet (.530 and .535) and patch (.010 and .014).  I am using moose milk to lube the patches and to swab the bore, which gets done after each shot.  All I can see that might provide you with some guidance in advising me, is that my two experimental charges, 90gr and 100gr FF(1,600 ft/s), with all combinatins mentioned above are shredding my patches almost beyond recognition; usually it ends up looking like a doughnut with no discernable marks for lands.  The whole thing is ragged and uniformly blackened.  My patch material is fabric store ticking, all cotton and in the two thicknesses above.  A few shots with 70 gr FF retains much more of the shape and integrity of the patch but is still inaccurate.  All PRB's can be started with my thumb - the tightest (.535 with .014 patch) can still be seated with my thumb but takes a bit of grunting.
I've no problem changing over to bullets but everything I've read says a 48 in twist should be quite accurate.

[Roger Fisher]

I just put a brand new OEM barrel on my Lyman Trade rifle - 1:48 in twist.
I am getting horrible groups (8 inches @ 100 yds) using all four combinations of bullet (.530 and .535) and patch (.010 and .014).  I am using moose milk to lube the patches and to swab the bore, which gets done after each shot.  All I can see that might provide you with some guidance in advising me, is that my two experimental charges, 90gr and 100gr (1,600 ft/s), with all combinatins mentioned above are shredding my patches almost beyond recognition; usually it ends up looking like a doughnut with no discernable marks for lands.  The whole thing is ragged and uniformly blackened.  My patch material is fabric store ticking, all cotton and in te two thicknesses above.  Aullets few shots with 70 gr FF retains much more of the shape and integrity of the patch but is still inaccurate.  All PRB's can be started with my thumb - the tightest (.535 with .014 patch) can still be seated with my thumb but takes a bit of grunting.
I've no problem changing over to bullets but everything I've read says a 48 in twist should be quite accurate.

If she were mine and she is a new barrel I'd wrap 4/0 wool tightly on a jag on my steel rod so she has to be forced in to the bore and run it in and out abt 70 full trips.  (Scotch brite pad works also.)  Lay the rifle padded in to your bench vise horizontal to ease the work.  This will smooth out any machining sharp edges and may solve the problem....  Maybe b/4 doing that simply go to a thicker patch and forget starting it with your thumb...   Let us know how it goes...

[xring2245]

FWIW, I had a GPR in .54 cal.  I now shoot a York County flintlock.  Both rifles loved the following loads - .535 RB patched with .018 ticking and 70gr. 2F for target and 90gr. 2F for hunting (both GOEX).  I jsut cast some .526s that I will try in the flinter as a hunting load, just so it will load easily.  The .535 ball took a lot of effort.

BTW, Roger's advice is well-worth trying.

James

[Bull Shannon]

I just put a brand new OEM barrel on my Lyman Trade rifle - 1:48 in twist. I am using moose milk to lube the patches and to swab the bore, which gets done after each shot. [my two experimental charges, 90gr and 100gr FF(1,600 ft/s), with all combinatins mentioned above are shredding my patches almost beyond recognition;]  The whole thing is ragged and uniformly blackened.  I've no problem changing over to bullets but everything I've read says a 48 in twist should be quite accurate.

I'm going to second Roger's advice and also add that in addition or instead of steel wool that you try JB's bore paste which you can buy from Midway, Track of the Wolf and other muzzle loader supply stores.  Steel wool followed by JB's would give you the best of both and polish the bore to perfection, but back to the problem at hand.  Investarms/Lyman barrels are somewhat notorious for leaving the factory with sharps edges on the rifling and you won't get good groups until those are polished away.  Now, you can just put 100 to 150 shots through it to accomplish the same thing but the Trade Rifle barrel is capable of being an excellent shooter.  My last Trade Rifle (barrel) was used as the basis for a custom cherry stocked left hand plains rifle and while it shoots RB very well it only groups conicals in the "acceptable but not outstanding" category and I would concentrate on finding a good load using .530's and .015-.018 shooting patches.  I would also say that you've started out with too much powder and should go back down to 55-60 grains of 2f Goex or other traditional black powder and work up a load from there in 5 grain increments..  Mine simply does not like 3f and has always been more accurate when using Goex as opposed to synthetics like Triple 7.  If you are using a substitute powder that could be the reason your patches are getting shredded too, but I'm betting it's the rifling.  One last suggestion is to check your sights and make sure they aren't loose.  Good luck and I hope this helps.

[bigsmoke]

With a 1:48 twist, you might be pushing it a bit to make a r/b work with heavier powder charges.  With a slower twist barrel, not so much of a problem.
Also, if the steel wool polish does not do the trick, try using a .54 caliber bore button or a 28 ga cushion wad would be probably less expensive.  The least expensive buffer would be corn meal, but I personally prefer the cushion wad.  They preserve the patches on my big bore guns, and if a 4 bore patch survives with 400 grains of Fg, well...
John

[LynnC]

1st, the scotchbrite or steel wooling the bore will help a bunch.

2nd, Patches are way too thin.  You might try doubling the your patch (till you get some thicker stuff) and using a short starter.

Hope this works for you............Lynn

[Jerry V Lape]

Experience with my .54 is that you have a several things going wrong.  First, you need to work the sharp edges off the rifling which is very very likely ruining your patch going in.  Second, the patches are way too thin - find some .020 .024 thick material which you can probably find in denims at the same store.  Wash the material before making patches.  If you can find some .535 diameter balls try them too.  Getting a tight load is important.  You said moose milk is the lube.  Is that a commercial product you bought or a homemade formula.  The wiping patch should not be sloppy wet, just moist or you will soon be getting misfires.  The patch can be wet, but not dripping.  The loads of 90 and 100 grains of 2Fg would be considered heavy hunting loads by many.  I use 90gr 2Fg Swiss for elk load and it is pretty heavy for me and would be equal of about 100 -105 gr of Goex 2Fg.   

I had some of these problems with my new barrel too.  Especially the shredded donut.  I did the scotch bright wrapped around the ramrod for a couple hundred strokes (put some of you moose milk on it) before I started getting whole patches back. 

[inthealders]

Thanks everyone.
You've likely saved me a bunch of lead that will get better use after the bore is lapped.
Today then, instead of being a range day, I'll be in the shop with some steel wool and JB paste.
To answer a previous post, my moose milk is home made (about a pint of water with two ounces each of water souble cutting fluid (NAPA) and Murphy's oil soap).  I was also thinking of going with something else here but with all of your comments pointing in the same direction, I will stay with it. 
 

[Hungry Horse]

 I have a friend who owns several Lyman Great Plains rifles. They are 1 in66" as apposed to the 1 in 48" you have, but the problem may be similar. All but one of his rifles had a rough spot down at the breech end of the barrel. Some of his guns simply improved with shooting. Others required lapping to get the rough spot out. The good news is all of them shoot like the devil today. We cast a lapping rod for the first couple, and then tried fire lapping the last one. all methods worked.

                       Hungry Horse

[SCLoyalist]

I had similar blown patch problems with a .40 cal rifle.  It shot a tight group at 25 yds, but 50 yds and out the bullets were all over the place, and the patches were shredded beyond recognition.   I figured the patch damage had to be from mechanical cutting of the patch on the lands, burning or gas erosion, or a combination of both.   In my case, I found instead of trying thicker and thicker cotton ticking patching, I got better results with spit lube rather than oil, and best results with a thinner oiled linen patch. 

  You might try this:  Load as normal, but instead of firing, use a CO2 discharger to bring the ball and patch back out and look for signs of the patch being cut.    And, try firing a few shots with about 50 gr by volume of cornmeal or Cream of Wheat between your powder charge and the patched ball.  That will form a firewall between all the hot gasses and the patch.   See how your group size and patch condition is when using  the filler.  The results may suggest a solution.    Good luck, SCL

[Hungry Horse]

SC;

  What  you say only reenforces my belief, that most muzzleloading guns are their own dog, when it comes to what they like in the way of a load. I have a rifle, I built, with a .50 cal. Montana barrel 1 in 72 twist. This barrel will shred heavy patching no matter what kind of material, or lube, you use. And, of course it didn't shoot worth a darn either. I inspected the barrel from end to end for  rough spots, and came up empty.  But, if you load it with a .490 or .495 ball an .010 greases patching, it shoots like a dream, and doesn't shred the patch, in fact the patches could be reused. Being a slow twist it only stabilizes the ball when you shoot a pretty stiff charge, usually a hundred grains of 3f. The patch shredding remains a mystery, but at least now I can make it shoot.

                             Hungry Horse

[Harnic]

IMHO if you can start the prb with your thumb, the combo is too small. Try a much thicker patch, heavy denim or cotton duck with the .535 ball.  I used nothing but 3f in my old 54, 75 gr for target & 130 for hunting.

[alsask]

I have a Lyman Trade rifle, flinter, but it has the same 1/48 twist barrel as yours.  Mine cut patches similar to how you describe.  I polished the bore first with scotch brite on a jag and finished it off with very fine polishing compound.  The bore is like a mirror now. 

Once polished I noticed it cleans up much quicker after shooting.  Best load mine likes is 85 grains of 2F.  Over 90 grains it opens up.  It does like a snug patch as well.

[Bull Shannon]

FWIW-my TR barrel does very well with a .530 RB, .015 pillow ticking lubed with an olive oil/beeswax/mineral oil mix and 85 grains of 2f Goex.  I wouldn't hesitate to use that load on anything in North America I am ever likely to hunt and it's also the same combo that I use for shooting matches where I have won the cold barrel stage 2 months in a row.

[SPG]

Mr. Alders,

No use in looking for accuracy until your patches aren't shredded. If they are still shredding with a reasonably tight patch and ball combination-harder than you can start with your thumb- I would go over the barrel with green scotch-brite lubed with JB. 100 passes, progressively shorter strokes to keep from bell-mouthing the muzzle, working from the breech. This means you will have to remove the barrel and breech plug, clamp the barrel tightly in a good vise and go to work. I'd follow this with 100 passes with white scotch-brite lubed with wd-40. Careful of the crown, use an insert to keep things centered at the breech.

I did this to an old Douglas .54 that had been somewhat neglected and the accuracy improvement was amazing.

Good luck,

Steve

[George Sutton]

I'd say your patch is way too thin. I would try a thicker patch before I put any abrasives down the barrel. The fact that your patches have holes in them are an indication that you are blowing holes in them, not cutting them on the rifling.

Centershot

[inthealders]

I gave the barrel a hundred passes with oo steel wool; then I cast a lead lap around a jag and lathered that up with Clover 320 and gave the barrel another hundred passes with this.  The tool marks in the gooves are still there of course but they look much softer.
Then I picked up some .017 ticking and made a starter since I knew I would no longer be able to start them with thumb pressure.

Now the patches bring tears to my eyes and 60 yard groups with open sights hover around three inches with most of the spread being my fault.  This is with .530's exclusively and only 70 and 80 grain loads.  It was getting dark so I had to cut the shooting short.
Suffice to say though that The problem is solved and I am well on my way.  Thank you all very much for the sound advice. 

[gunner69]

I am having a similiar problem and the gun is basically new.  I will have to try working my bore like you did.   Thanks everyone for the good ideas.

[Bull Shannon]

Now the patches bring tears to my eyes and 60 yard groups with open sights hover around three inches with most of the spread being my fault.  This is with .530's exclusively and only 70 and 80 grain loads.  It was getting dark so I had to cut the shooting short. Suffice to say though that The problem is solved and I am well on my way.  Thank you all very much for the sound advice. 

I'm glad you got her shooting well, I took my plains rifle with it's re-purposed .54 Trade Rifle barrel and shot a 3 inch group at 40 yards using .018 blue striped pillow ticking lubed with a mixture of olive and mineral oil melted together with beeswax and 2f Goex.  I started with 55 grains, moved to 75 grains and then on to my regular shooting load of 85 grains which raised the point of impact a little more than 2 inches.  Once the bore is polished these barrels can shoot tight groups and I would trust the .54 RB to take down anything in North America that I am every likely to hunt.

[Roger Fisher]

I am having a similiar problem and the gun is basically new.  I will have to try working my bore like you did.   Thanks everyone for the good ideas.

Gunner: I hope he meant 0000 wool and not 00.    In any case try it and you might like it.

[gunner69]

Thank you Roger.   I think I will try the White Scotch Brite w/  WD-40 to be safe.