Can Plains Pistol Rifling Be Corrected?

[Mattole]

I posted this on the Muzzleloading.com forum and thought I would try the experts here as well.

Early this year I put together a nice .54 Lyman Plains Pistol. Unfortunately after I did all the wood shaping and filing of the tang to be flush with the stock, and after staining and finishing etc, I test fired the pistol and found that it could not achieve groups better than about 5" at 15 yards, no matter what patch thickness and ball diameter and powder I used. I knew these pistols were supposed to be accurate, so I suspected there was a problem somewhere..

Upon inspection I found that there was a place in the rifling a few inches from the bore where it looked much shallower than the rest of the rifling, so it seems that it has a defect. Is there somewhere I can send the barrel where they can cut the rifling to what it should be? Otherwise I will have to get another barrel from Lyman and try to match it to the stock, which will be very difficult to do without having to file through the nice finish on the wood.

This was admittedly a bit heartbreaking to discover after putting so much effort into filing off the lettering, fitting and finishing the barrel and the stock. Next time I will test the gun much earlier in the process!

Thanks for your suggestions.

[Bob Roller]

Take a look at the crowning of the muzzle. If it is an 8 groove barrel,
there should be an 8 pointed star from the escaping gas when the pistol
is fired. If there is not this distinct star,recrown the barrel.

Bob Roller

[Acer Saccharum]

Bob Hoyt can certainly reline it, or maybe even recut it.

700 Fairfield Station Rd.
Fairfield, PA 17320

[Gaeckle]

Sometimes factory made barrels are very rough. Try some running steel wool (4 ought,or 0000) thru the barrel to kick off any burrs or sharp edges. Have you gathered any patches for review? Are you blowing thru your patches, any tears or burn marks?

Shooting a pistol is very different from shooting a rifle. All those muscles that need to hold, balance, squeeze and hold steady that pistol can cause some accuracy problems. How's the trigger pull? Do you start pulling on Sunday and by Tuesday it goes off? Have you bagged the pistol while shooting or is this entirely offhand? Are you using one hand or two hands?

Lastly, what is your powder charge and what grainulation are you using?

15 yards is 45 feet and by my recolection, that is a long distance for a pistol. Pistols are not intended for long distance shooting, unless they have been worked up and designed specifically for target status. When I shoot my modern pistols I am shooting at about 20 feet, perhaps a tad more and I am getting about a 4 inch group. Yet again, I am not the worlds best pistol shot, but I do enjoy shooting them.

You may be jumping the 'gun', so to speak, and you may need to make some obsevations. There may be nothing wrong with the barrel.

[Mattole]

Thanks very much for the replies, gentlemen.

Come to think of it, I do remember some blown patches when I last shot the pistol about eight months ago. Is this caused by the rifling being too sharp? Here is a photo that I took at the time of some of my patches:



Suggestions are welcome!

Kevin

[Acer Saccharum]

 Those patches show blowby, and gas cutting. Could be crown too sharp.

I'd like a good crisp photo of the muzzle, if you get a chance.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

before I can offer any helpful suggestions, I need to know what charge and kind of powder you're using, what kind of ball and how big, how thick is the patch material and what lube do you use?  To get patches blown and burnt that badly in a pistol - wow!  Something is definitely amiss!!  I doubt that it is faulty rifling, but will reserve that critique when I have more info.

[Mattole]

Alas, the details elude my memory, for this was about eight months ago, and I did not save my notes. In my efforts to find the right ball/patch/powder combination I do know that I tried both .530 and .535 balls, with both 777 and Goex 3F powder, in increments starting at 20 grains. Patch thickness shown here was .006 denim with Dutchy's dry lube, which performs wonderfully in my Lyman Great Plains .54 rifle. After the shooting session shown here I believe I tried some thicker .020 patches that Daryl sent me, lubed with a ballistol:water mixture. There were no blown patches that I recall but accuracy was still not great.

[Jerry V Lape]

Try loading a ball with your normal patch and lube (no powder).  Then pull the ball or blow it out with a co2 discharger and inspect the patch.  It may disclose you are cutting the patch on loading - due to sharp rifling edges.  If so, wrap some green scotchbrite around a ramrod to make a snug fit, add a little ballistol w/water lube and scrub the bore a while adding new scotchbrite as the old gets worn.  Also smooth up the crown with 400 paper and your thumb.  Try the patch and ball again.  Those patches look a lot like my first few from a barrel which in now smooth and shoots very well.  I didn't invent this - Don Getz told me about the scotchbrite treatment.  A .006 patch isn't likely to survive anything.  Never had any success with the Dutch's dry lube system myself.  I do use Ballistol and water mix for moist patches at the range, and use a grease patch for hunting. 

[Mattole]

Thank you Jerry. I do believe I have a ball puller and will give your suggestion a try.

[Gaeckle]

May be that you are slicing your patches as you load them.......

[Dphariss]

Get some white or grey scotch brite pads from the auto parts store. With a jag that makes a tight fit run the scotch brite about 10-20 strokes. DO NOT pull it out of the muzzle each time. Just to with in 1/4" or so. Then run a tight 0000 steel wool pad up and down 5-10 times as a final polish.
Check the crown too.  New barrels of this sort are often either rough or have burred edges on the lands.
Also be aware that not every lot of fabric is equal some is too weak, even though identical in all regards, may fail when started in the muzzle.

I have some blue stripe ticking that is weak. "Same material". UNTIL I look at the edging. Its different. The weak stuff tears very easy down the stripe. The old stuff with a different edging is near impossible to tear either way. I was finding damaged patches, not all of them just maybe 20%-30%. Some were torn with the stripe where the weak material failed when the ball was started.

Dan

[Acer Saccharum]

Good advice, Dan.

[Gaeckle]

..............try some 2f powder as well, 3f may be part of the issue...........

[bama]

For starters a plow handeled pistol is dificult to shoot accurately, not impossible, but difficult. I have shot a number of them at Friendship in the traditional pistol matches and they can shoot a good as any pistol there but it takes practice and knowing your pistol. I have seen pertect scores shot with these pistols at 25 yards and some high 90's shot at 50 yards. So I know that they can be made to shoot.

First I would work the lock and trigger arrangement to get the lightest trigger pull possible.
Second I would work on your stance and how you grip the pistol. You have to grip the pistol the same from shot to shot, if you do not you will never shoot a good target even with the best pistol out there.

Third I would drop your powder charge back to 7 gr of 2F. This will do a couple of things for you. You will not be fighting the recoil of the magnum load of 20gr and you will probably stop burning through you patches.

Forth - practice, practice, practice

Once you do these few things these few things and have shot a few hundred rounds through your pistol you will be able to shoot a good group with your pistol.

I once watched a High Master at Friendship shoot an almost pertect score with a smoothbore plow handel pistol. He actually worked up the load for the pistol there on the line. I watched his practice group as he tuned the load so the pistol would hit the 10 ring. It took him approx. two relays to get the pistol to do what he wanted. It was the best thing I have ever seen done with a pistol in my shooting career. He then proceded to shoot a 97 at 25 yds with a smooth bore plow handeled pistol. Now there is no telling the number of rounds this gentleman has shot over the years, but it is more than just a handful.

So moral of this story, you may not ever shoot a great target with your pistol but you will never know until you spend the time to know that you do not have to shoot 20 gr of powder in it for it to shoot good.

[FL-Flintlock]

PM sent.

[Dphariss]

Powder charges depend on what the pistol's use is to be.
20 gr in a 54 pistol is of no use to me.
I shoot 45 minimum and they are reasonably accurate.  2" or so at 25 yards and will shoot pretty well to 100.
I have used as much as 70. 60 was the load for another.
Yeah its "Magnum" load. But the pistol shot OK with it and I killed a deer with it at 25 yards or so.

Dan

[duca]

Very good tread. O and Nice job on the pistol. I'm waiting to here the end result. good Luck!