H. Leman fullstock

[Shreckmeister]

Hoping someone who has seen alot of Leman  rifles can tell me if the patchbox looks right
on this one.  To me it appears like a later addition with poor engraving, but maybe they came this
way.  Anyway, I am thinking about this fullstock 45 cal rifle and could use some help.  Here is
a picture.   I don't have a closeup.  I just got some feedback saying the trade rifles only had
single triggers.  This one has double set.

[firelock-inc]

From the things we read, people like to think of INDIAN TRADE RIFLES as single
trigger and large caliber. Your pictures show a very nice rifle that I would be proud
to oun.  I currently have three Lemen rifles which are very different than tho one you
show.  The problem is that this  a "Trade Rifle" but are you looking for what is consdered an INDIAN TRADE RIFLE ?

If you like it, and can  afford it, buy it.

Rickp The trade gun guy.

[nosrettap1958]

Is this an example of the "Fake" curl Leman use to burn into his stocks??

[Robert Wolfe]

Leman fake curls were inked in rather than burned. I think there is at least one thread on this site that shows the process.

[Shreckmeister]

The curl IS fake..but not burned...i would say ink

[JCKelly]

If you decide not to get that ratty old thing you might let me know where to find it. Just sold a couple guns & am in withdrawl.
Jim Kelly jkellymetal@gmail.com

[Jim Kibler]

First let me say that I know next to nothing about Leman guns.  In addition this era of gun is one I've not paid much attention to.  With that said, the cap box does look a little odd in my view.  Seems it is unusually far forward and the engraving is pretty crude.  Hard to say, but it appears to be pretty white in appearance, and somewhat different than the guard.  This could of course be because it is more highly polished.  It may be completely right, but I'm not sure.  Oh, tried the gunbroker link and no images were shown.  Will be interested in others thoughts.

[elk killer]

there is a lot of different Lemans, they came in several forms,
i would say that box is a later addition, dont look like any engraving
i have seen on original Lemans, triggers look out of place too,
but then the guard has been streched to accept double set triggers to,
soon as you think your right,,your not..

[Shreckmeister]

First let me say that I know next to nothing about Leman guns.  In addition this era of gun is one I've not paid much attention to.  With that said, the cap box does look a little odd in my view.  Seems it is unusually far forward and the engraving is pretty crude.  Hard to say, but it appears to be pretty white in appearance, and somewhat different than the guard.  This could of course be because it is more highly polished.  It may be completely right, but I'm not sure.  Oh, tried the gunbroker link and no images were shown.  Will be interested in others thoughts.

   Jim,  You and I share the same thoughts about the patchbox.

[David Rase]

There are a couple of Lemans hanging on the wall in Chuck Dixon's shop.  I know that one of the guns for sure had double set triggers, can't say for sure that the other did.  
I agree that the color of the capbox is not as yellow as the trigger guard, could be camera angle/flash.  The engraving does not look to be of the same period.  Based strictly on one photo I would say the capbox is a contemporary addition.  Other then the capbox, it appears to be a very nice piece.  It appears that the buttplate is iron and the toe brass which is typical on this gun.
Dave

[Chuck Burrows]

Ya'll might reconsider - here's some pics of several original Lemans the top two from Jim Gordon's museum:
Note the varying patchboxpositioningg and similar style on several. As for fairlyy crude engraving - not uncommon compare to the following pics and no engraving was also quite common. Double triggers are not unknown either note some in the upper pictures. Leman, like most makers for the western trade, made rifles in varying qualities over his lifetime which stretched into the 1880's





Chief Joseph's Leman






an 1850's era flinter with a good Eanglish made waterproof lock


Hoepfully Sean Kyle will chime in - he's more up on Leman's and can probably date this box ( IIRC this is an 1850's or later box and IMO is shiny due to the flash - it may be a later addition but not necessarily so.

[Don Getz]

At one time I had a J. Fordney rifle and the stripes appeared to be painted on.   The last gun pictured above appears to
be done the same way............Don

[Chuck Burrows]

yep painted
 see Jack Brooks' how-to -
https://www.jsbrookslongrifles.com/theclassroom.htm
Scroll down about 3/4 of the page to How Do You Stripe a Leman stock?

[nosrettap1958]

Played a big part in the settlement of the West, probably more so than even the fabled Winchester even though that part was far more mundane.

[Dennis Glazener]

At one time I had a J. Fordney rifle and the stripes appeared to be painted on.   The last gun pictured above appears to
be done the same way............Don

I have a J. Fordney that the stripes are painted on. From a distance they look pretty natural.
Dennis

[Sean]

Several of the pics Chuck posted were mine from Gordon's collection.   He's got some great Lemans and so much more.  The placement of the box and the engraving look legit to me.  This is likely an 1860's era gun given the wilted lilly capbox.  Guns like this were sold by hard goods dealers all over the US and were used as treaty and trade guns for Indians.  Leman made and imported guns that ranged widely in quality and decoration. From fine engraved pieces with German silver mounts to plain brass-mounted, single triggered working pieces.  Most of his flint guns of this period were trade and treaty arms and he was turning these out well into the Civil War era.  There wasn't much of a flint market with the anglos by that time.  Leman was far from the only person to paint on curl.  Several Lancaster and Philly makers did this to varying degrees.  There were also smaller volume makers in the Lehigh area who had their own distinctive way of inking faux curl.

It's a really nice Leman and its in really good condition, but there are a lot of them out there in that condition.

Sean

[redheart]

Sean,

I was hoping that you or anyone could give us examples and hopefully photos of other makers besides Leman that applied the faux maple striping effect to their trade rifles not to put anyone on the spot but only because it is a fascinating subject and I believe that many are interested in it!!!

[mbriggs]

I live in Guilford County, North Carolina and have been collecting and studying local Longrifles for many years.  The Jamestown School loved the look of tiger striped maple wood on their Longrifles.  I have owned many excellent examples and posted some of them on this site.

If a piece of wood did not have natural striping, they would often add artificial stripes.  Some are very clumsily done, others are so good it is had to tell at first glance.  I have owned several examples that were painted with a brush.  The best, I believe, were done with a piece of twine or a string that was soaked in acid or Aquafortis and then wrapped around the stock.

Here are a few photos of my Jamestown Longrifle by Bartlett Yancey Couch.  He was one of four Couch brothers to work as a gunsmith in this school.  His rifles are very rare as I have only seen three of them in the last thirty-two years.  The side plate on this rifle is signed by James "Duck" White, who was a journeyman stocker who worked for several Jamestown gunmakers in the later half of the Nineteenth Century. I believe that the rifle was made in Couch's gunshop and was probably stocked by Duck White.

This rifle started life as a flintlock and was converted to percussion during the period of use.











The artificial stripes on this rifle are well done. They fool the eye. I have seen better, but also owned some not as good.

Michael