Short grain issues in pistol stocks

[DaveP (UK)]

Good Evening Gentlemen, and Hello!
As you might guess I'm a UK resident  and I've been a shooter for about 7 years. Since childhood I have been drawn to flintlocks, and I'm now planning to start building myself one sometime in the next 12 months. Oh - I like making things as well!
A kit would be an excellent way to start, but AFAIK they cant be brought into the UK
I dont have an engineering background, so I'll be looking for a finished barrel (and acquiring that promises to be a challenge) and lock. I'll be getting my satisfaction from making a well fitting stock, attaching the metal parts to it and finishing the whole. And then making holes in pieces of paper - you can't hunt with BP rifles in the UK.
I have in my possession an original proof marked barrel for a mid 19C officers percussion pistol. Its a bit of a brute, being 9" long with a bore measuring .733" or thereabouts, but legally it is, and will always remain, an antique. So I can have it entered on my FAC, take it to the range and shoot it. When I've had enough I can have it taken off ticket and hang it on the wall, something I couldn't do with a repro barrel.
I'm planning to use this for my first attempt at gun building. I already have a reproduction lock. It seems to me that making and fitting the other components will require many of the skills  I'll be needing when I get round to a rifle, and the legal advantages more than make up for any omissions!
Gettting back to the title of the thread. And I hope I can be forgiven for starting my membership with a question so conspicuously not about long rifles, but I have realised that I need to find an answer to a woodworking problem. Its a little specialised, but I'm hoping that someone here will have faced up to something similiar.
These pistols had an L shaped stock, the grip making a near right angle to the woodwork surrounding the lock and barrel. I can envisage a potential for weakness near that angle caused by the shape of the stock resulting in short grain, probably near the top of the grip.
How should I lay out my blank to minimise that risk?
I have looked at pictures on line. What with exotic figure, chequering and patina it's difficult to make out the grain in pictures, but I did find one where growth rings could be seen running down the back of the grip. On the other hand, I have a reproduction Le Page pistol and the growth rings on that run across the grip. On a side view the grain runs at a slight angle to the axis of the barrel, about 15 degrees downwards to the rear. I'm not sure if it would be a good idea to copy that though - there are differences between a .36 target pistol and a .733 horse stopper and I'd hate to be reminded of them by the barrel landing between my eyes!
Is this why some trigger guards come so far down the grip - a sort of safety strap?

[Acer Saccharum]

Go for best grain layout you can get. If you can handpick wood, bring a clear plastic stock profile with you.

Or, get a piece that has grown in a curve. I like this the best.

[B.Habermehl]

The verry best way, is to cut your stock bank from one side of a large knot. This will give you the best grain flow around the grip. You will get two stocks, one from each side of the knot. I built a matched set of pistols this way before. BJH

[Jim Kibler]

It may be ideal if the grain follows the pistol grip, but I question whether this was too much of a priority on most original work.  Look at original examples and see what you think.

[b bogart]

My geuss is that the loading process will put more pressure on the wrist area than shooting it? i have a very nice small piece of curly maple that will only be big enough for a couple pistol stocks, so I hope I'm correct.
Bruce (the Hopeful)

[DaveP (UK)]

I'd love to find a piece of wood with the right curve in the grain, possibly even branch wood, but I hadn't thought of exploiting knots in that way. Such a pity that most of the wood I've collected over the years is straight grained and relatively knot free.
Its difficult to view original examples 'in the flesh'. I live in a city which was the home of UK arms manufacture, but when the local Museum of Science and Technology was relocated the arms collection found itself without a home, and very few people take originals that old to the range.
However these pistols weren't thoroughbreds. They were designed to use the same locks and the same ammunition as the  musket of the time, and were made in their thousands. I would imagine that stock manufacture was little more sophisticated than buying in planks of walnut and sawing them up into the maximum number of blanks. Maybe I'm worrying unnecessarily, but I'd like give myself a good chance of surviving the test session. So, what would be the best grain layout, given fairly straight grained timber? Setting the run of the grain across the 'corner'? Would a bigger angle give more strength than a smaller one?
Apologies if I seem to be harping on a bit, but this question has been bugging me for quite a while.

[davec2]

David,

I'm not sure from your description what the grip shape is or how best to arrange a straight grain to accommodate the grip design for strength.  However, depending on the arrangement of the trigger guard / trigger plate, the following may be an option.  This is from a post of mine on building that great British flintlock "assault" weapon, the Ferguson rifle.  I had a grain problem in the wrist that I was worried about as well.  This is how I solved the problem and, at least so far, there have been no problems shooting full service loads:  The complete original post is here: 

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=6184.0

The following is an excerpt...

When I purchased the Ferguson parts from the Rifle Shop several years ago, I also purchased a stock mostly to see the anatomy in 3D.  As is usually the case (at least for me) with purchasing a roughed out stock, a lot of the "roughing" is in the wrong place.  I thought I could save this one and, if not, I had intended to make one from scratch any way. 

When I started the work again, I noted the poor grain run through the wrist.  I consulted Jerry H about it (because I knew he wouldn't sugar coat his opinion).  I sent him this picture and asked what he thought about the wrist:



Basically he said to throw it away and start over.  So, I got another piece of walnut, but as I was roughing it out, I thought I would give this stock just one more shot at saving it (more good practice !)  I routed a groove under the trigger guard from the lock area down into the comb area and cut a straight grained piece of the new walnut to match the cut out.  I installed it with Acraglass and then re-inlet the trigger plate.  Since the insert is nearly the full height of the wrist, it is the equivalent of three or four dowels run through the wrist side by side.  As a consequence, I have some high hopes for the stock not shearing off and hitting me in the snott locker when I touch this thing off.  Here are some rather poor pictures of the repair, but you will get the idea.  I would appreciate any comments you guys have on how well you think this will work (or mabey we should just start a pool on how many shots I can get off before I am the proud owner of a "take down" Ferguson !?!)

[Jim Kibler]

I quickly looked through the pistol section of "Kentucky Rifles and Pistols 1750-1850" to see how many pistols had stocks where the grain generally bent with the grip.  It's not always perfectly clear, but my guess is somewhere around 10 of 56 pistols shown have this characteristic.  So if you want to worry about it or not, take your pick.

[tyro]

DaveP(UK) Are U building a replica of a certain pistol that requires the angle U describe? Perhaps U could search out a dueling or target pistol from the same period with a stock design more in line with the grain of the wood U posses. As to a rifled barrel, the hexagonal steel drive rod available at some steel salvage yards has an oil journal down the center of it that could serve as a pilot hole and U could grind a pilot on  a regular drill bit and weld or have welded an extension to drill whatever length barrel U desire.  To rifle it, there was a thread here in November, last year with several links to that subject... U have wood working skills so U have the skills needed for this as well.  If I sent U a barrel from the US would that be breaking your laws? TY
   Davec2, I liked that reenforcement so much I'm going to copy it on a cartridge rifle with a split stock I have...I'll let U know how it fares ...Thanx TY

[David R. Pennington]

I have a walnut blank in the rafters of the shop I chainsawed out of an old tree stump that uprooted. It has grain that follows a curve of the root that should make a good pistol stock some day. That is the way they used to make knee braces for ship building.

[tyro]

DaveP(UK) If U have an interest in boring and rifling your own barrel the threads from David Rase in the Shop made tools section titled Iowa Rifling Bench is for U. His work is fabulous and all the rest of the info from the guys here is more than impressive. TY

[DaveP (UK)]

Oh please dont send me a barrel!
I thank you for the kind thought, but it would probably be delivered by M.I.5 in the early dawn...  Actually, I believe the real difficulty would be to get it out of the US legally. Let's not go there!
I think you have touched on a valid point - I'm not trying to produce a replica in this instance. I want to build a safe, functional and visually acceptable gun around an antique barrel. As an exercise.
I was reading somewhere recently that these pistols were not popular back in the day because of their heavy calibre and poor handling. It wouldnt hurt to restyle a little.

davec2:- Good idea!. If I had a perfect blank I'd probably waste it, so I think I'll try that for myself. I'll have to cut it by hand, being on the inside of a curve, but it will let me make a start with what's to hand. Thanks!

[greybeard]

Perhaps if a person could find stock wood that is board sawn as opposed to quarter sawn it should be stronger through the stock with vertical grain instead of horizontal grain?
   I'mjust saying you know.     Bob Reader

[tyro]

DaveP(UK) Would they come and cart U off for drilling and rifling your own M/L barrel?
    I have given this a bit of thought( I'm laid up right now and these guys and now U are keeping my sanity intact...I think). 
   Brownell's of Montezuma, Iowa  caries piloted drills which drill an 8mm(.314") hole (for 22 rim fire barrel liners to restore shot/rusted out 22 barrels) and two larger sizes as well(50+ cal), the long drill is 18" and U could drill a 32" barrel with it. U could do the whole thing, lock stock and barrel, if U choose.
     When I finally get back to my tools and things, building a rifling and boring bench is high on my list of TUITS!!... TY

[davec2]

DaveP,

You said something in your initial post that confused me a little.  You noted that "A kit would be an excellent way to start, but AFAIK they cant be brought into the UK".  I have often dealt with E.J. Blackley & Son buying parts etc from the UK.  Can the kits sold by Blackley not be purchased and / or assembled in the UK??  If true I believe we in the US are not far behind....but not yet.  My condolences on your situation.

http://www.blackleyandson.com/acatalog/Pistol_Kits.html

[DaveP (UK)]

Three in one here:
Greybeard: I was wondering the same thing myself - but it looks as if no one feels able to commit to any firm advice, or maybe my question was just a little too off beat - It's not a problem because I have been helped out with a couple of ideas that will work for me this time. Thanks for the suggestion.

Tyro: Possession of tubing, even rifled tubing probably wouldnt be a problem. They might not like it - but they couldnt touch you for it - Its a tube! Thread the end, and you could be on thin ice. Probably best to stamp a serial number on it and have it recorded on your licence. If you dont, and if they happened to find any sort of plug with a compatible thread among your effects...
TBH, unless there were other features of your lifestyle that caused concern, they might not prosecute - it would be easier and cheaper to withdraw your licence on the grounds that you were not displaying a proper and responsible attitude to the law. You wouldnt get it back, you'd lose all your guns - and you'd have to find a new hobby. That's Scary!

davec2: I have bought from Blackleys myself, though not recently. Some years ago I did enquire if their Dragoon pistol Kits were shooters or wall hangers. The response was that the locks were functional but the barrels, as found, were not shooters. In the pics of the kit (at the time) it appeared that many of the lock parts were raw castings requiring substantial finishing, fitting and presumably heat treatment. I've never had any success with tempering etc so I decided it was not for me. I have looked at their site again recently and the situation appears to have improved. I'd buy one tomorrow if I wanted a wall hanger, but $610 for a kit that requires additional machining (with attendant legal complications) to render it functional seems expensive to me. I could buy a working repro for about 2/3 the cost. I'm more inclined to try to obtain a completed Chambers lock, source a barrel somehow and enjoy creating the rest.
Importing a kit might not be impossible, but finding a registered dealer willing to undertake all the paper work for an uncommon transaction might be. I know of one who imports Green Mountain Barrels for his custom 10-22s, but he was doubtful that he could get in a BP barrel, largely because of US export regulations.

I suppose I ought to apologise for writing so much off topic - Sorry! But before ending could someone advise me on a point of manners?
When replying on here to a person who has a username but adds their real name to the ends of posts, what is the customary way to address him?
I like to be polite, but that can mean different things in different places!

[davec2]

DaveP,

I have purchased barrels from Blackley as well.  I think the only reason they would tell you that they are "not shooters" is that the touch hole is not drilled.  Just a thought for you.

And I am not aware of any U.S. export laws that would preclude shipment of a muzzle loading barrel over seas.

Best of luck.

[Jim Kibler]

If you don't plan on beating someone over the head with your pistol, I would think it will withstand normal use regardless of the grain orientation.  The fact the majority of original work was constructed with grain that does not follow the grip is a testament to this.  It appaently wasn't an issue in the period and it doesn't have to be one now either. 

[tyro]

DaveP(UK)  It's not hard to see, if I would only look....
   Speaking of which, I'll be looking for your photos as U progress on your projects. 
   To your original question, I was looking at photos of several period weapons, and the" saw handled" dueling pistols would seem to adequately support the lock and barrel plus the grip angle seems better suited to target shooting. I imagine dueling pistols needed all the accuracy one could muster.  Have fun with your project and don't forget the pictures.     TY   (I'm pretty informal, and good fellowship seems to be more important here than formalities from what I've seen in my brief membership.)