Would a patent breech be "wrong" on a Vincent?

[WV_Mountaineer]

Am planning a Vincent build and would like to hear from someone who has studied the Vincent rifles.  I have read a lot about patent breeches being safer than the drum installations.  And, TOWs descriptions infers they are appropriate for 'Ohio' rifles, although their kit includes a drum.  Most I have seen have had drums, but there are a lot that I haven't seen.  Are there examples of the patent breech on Vincent rifles.  I want it to be 'historically' correct. Any help is appreciated.

[Robby]

You might try contacting the folks here,  http://www.aolrc.org/   .
Their gunmaking spanned a good many years, so I don't see any reason why they would not have used a patent type breech. I used one. Good luck!
Robby

[T*O*F]

Jesse,
TOTW has a patent breech casting available which has the drum as an integral part of the casting.
Unfortunately, like many of their items today, some sizes may not be in stock.

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/666/1

[Robby]

That's the one I used.
Robby

[Bob Roller]

IF a drum is installed correctly,it is safe within the limits imposed
by round ball guns with sensible loads.It is a bad idea to use them with
thin wall barrels like a 15/16 in 54 caliber but I am certain it has been done.
Absolutely NOT with a 45 caliber rifle using 90 or more grains of powder and
a bullet of 480 to 550 grains.
Before the drum is installed,look at a drill/tap chart and see what size drill is
recommended for the threads on the drum.Use a drill ONE size smaller than the
recommended size and after it's drilled,countersink that hole the depth of one full
thread and the,using a sharp tap and threading fluid or oil,thread the hole.I prefer fine threads
 for this job. NEVER assume a drill bit is the right one and always check it with a micrometer
if you have one. I remember one fellow that started out to have a 5/16x24 thread for a drum
and ended up with a 7/16x20 thread. Be careful is the thing here.

Bob Roller

[WV_Mountaineer]

Thanks to all for the replies.  I should have mentioned it is a 13/16 .40 cal. barrel.  Wall thickness is .212.

[Leatherbark]

I have a Vincent that I found at Hillsville Va. flea market several years ago.  It had a .40 caliber barrel that said  "Made for Golden Age Arms by Douglas" on the bottom flat.  The woman  bought it from said the maker died before he could fininsh it. He did real well on all the inlays and patchbox but the 13/16ths barrel he had with a drum looked only  3 or 4 threads with a slant cut on the face of the breechplug to direct the flash. I would have none of that so I cut the barrel off 1 inch and started over.

Since he already had the lock inlet cut, I was at the mercy of his dimensions for placement of the drum.  I decided that I would use a full length 9/16ths threaded plug and place the 1/4x28 drum directly into the side of the barrel and into the breechplug threads. I then removed the breech plug and drilled the face of it with a 1/4 inch hole 5/16ths inches deep to intersect the drum hole. So I made a patent breech of sorts that allowed me to install the barrel in relationship with the lock, plus a safer arrangement with that thinwalled 13/16ths inch barrel. 

Of course I had to do this out of necessity in order to save a beautiful stock. I believe a correctly installed drum in a 13/16ths barrel with correct thread relationship sealed up with maybe red locktight for a permanent hold and good support from the lock cutout would be safe with any sane patched ball load.

Bob

[Dphariss]

Am planning a Vincent build and would like to hear from someone who has studied the Vincent rifles.  I have read a lot about patent breeches being safer than the drum installations.  And, TOWs descriptions infers they are appropriate for 'Ohio' rifles, although their kit includes a drum.  Most I have seen have had drums, but there are a lot that I haven't seen.  Are there examples of the patent breech on Vincent rifles.  I want it to be 'historically' correct. Any help is appreciated.

Drum installations with modern cold rolled steel drums are marginal. They DO break off sometimes and exit with considerable force.
I don't make drum and nipple guns for this reason.
Proving the Vincent's did or did not make a patent breech gun is impossible. All the cheap guns made in America had them. But they were made of iron or hot rolled steel.
The Gov't did not use them even for conversions from FL.


This one has a 1" Hawken breech and a lollipop tang sight.


If you DO use a D&N set up I suggest you make one of high quality hot rolled steel or do a complete anneal of the one you buy. Will need anti-scale for the threads. I also dislike drilling a big hole right at the breech of the barrel.
If you are using a 13/16 barrel its not HC anyway IMO so whats the point?
Dan

[DICKH]

In volume v of Ohio Gunsmiths & Allied Tradesman on page 151 there is a John Vincent rifle with a patent breech. In the Dec. 1946 issue of MUZZLE BLAST Red Farris had a Vincent picket rifle for sale it had a patent  breech with a brass lockplate.                                               
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Richard Henderson
                                                 

[billm]

Thanks to all for the replies.  I should have mentioned it is a 13/16 .40 cal. barrel.  Wall thickness is .212.

I talked to the people at rice barrels last week and they told me 13/16 in a 40 cal with a straight barrel was fine for drum and nipple setup .You might want to give them a call, they helped me out...Bill

[Bob Roller]

Use a fine thread drum and make sure it's firmly supported by the lock plate.
.212 is still not a heavy walled barrel.

Bob Roller

[okieboy]

 When there is a discussion about the safety of drun systems, there is always discussion of of lock support and drun material. While these are important issues, I am surprised that no one mentions the strength of the springs placed in modern percussion locks. These springs are far heavier that igniting a percussion cap requires. Compare a modern Davis lock to an oridinal Golcher or a Bluegrass lock. While the heavier spring might provide a competitive shooter with a coulple of milliseconds faster lock time, it is probably minor. I tend to think that these are flintlock springs applied to percussion locks.
 Also, if the hammers did not fall so far beyond the top of the nipple, it might be possible to tune them to barely touch the top of the nipple at complete fall and minimize the impact.
 Bob, love to hear your thoughts on this.   

[bgf]

Okie,
Just for the sake of discussion, a weak spring in a cap gun can lead to hammer bounce-back, which can lead to getting sprayed and peppered.  I suppose a vented drum (or nipple) might help.

[Bob Roller]

I prefer the hammer to have maximum impact to more or less guarantee the cap will fire
and to seal the nipple at the time of ignition.As far as supporting the drum is concerned,I think
it's a good idea and a good fit reflects the ability of the maker to get it right.
The only guns I ever heard of that had a tiny clearence between the hammer and the nipple were
original Colt percussion revolvers but all that is needed to mess that up is a nipple change and the
same goes for any rifles set up this way as well.
I prefer a bolster breech on any caplock and if they are made right,there is no problem with them
and I have never heard of one blowing out of the side of a barrel.Also useful is a lock with a forged mainspring
and something that resembles precisely fit rotating parts is a benefit as well.

Bob Roller