Author Topic: philosophies of builders (some observations)  (Read 5711 times)

whetrock

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philosophies of builders (some observations)
« on: February 08, 2013, 09:24:26 AM »
In a recent thread http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=25265.15, a very typical sort of debate erupted on techniques, level of surface finish needed or expected, HC tooling, etc.  Some point of these basic debates comes up every week or two. I think most of us understand them well enough, but I do wonder sometimes what a newer builder might think of it.

I suspect that some builders (especially newer builders) are simply trying to learn enough to put together a safe, functional, visually attractive rifle. They may not yet have developed any particular opinion about tools, historical correctness (HC), etc. We can call this view #(1). I wonder if new builders who visit the forum recognize that there are least four other major philosophical perspectives that appear in the replies in various threads. (I list these other four as I understand them as #s 2, 3, 4 and 5.)

(2) Some members on here could be called “extreme traditionalists” (meant as a complement). HC is of primary concern to them. They even push themselves to use only traditional tools, intentionally seeking out or building for themselves a toolset that would be completely at home in an 18th c shop. When describing their work, they are careful to differentiate pieces built with modern tools from pieces built with only traditional tools (that is, with no electricity and only 18th c technology). (These builders generally strive for a very holistic control of historical correctness in design, carving, engraving, etc. as well as in tool and materials choice.)

(3) Some others want to see an HC design and surface finish, but are content to use modern tools to get through much of the grunt work (if for no other reason than to stave off carpal tunnel syndrome). But they then switch to traditional tools for final surface prep. For example, many in this category prefer to see a final surface with no evidence of electric (circular) tool marks, and so they prepare the final surface with only hand-driven (generally linear) tool marks. (These builders can be also be keenly interested in HC design, carving, etc. In an effort to achieve an HC surface, they may choose, for example, to avoid sandpaper in preference for scraping, etc.)

(4) Still others are not concerned so much about HC, but nevertheless see the American Longrifle as an art form. But for them it is a still evolving art form. It is a somewhat predefined canvas, but the tools that they might choose to use on it are more open to interpretation. I think that in most cases, builders working in this genre know full well that they are going beyond HC in their choices. They don’t see “workmanlike” as a holistic approach to be mastered, but as a primitive albeit historical state to be pushed beyond. They may think of the form of the longrifle as being relatively fixed, but they imagine taking that form as they understand it to some higher degree of perfection. Some builders in this category might work within the style of some old builder, such as Dickert or Rupp, for example, but they intentionally open up the tool set, with the goal of “perfecting craftsmanship” beyond what Dickert or Rupp could have possibly achieved with the tools that were available in the 18th c.

(5) There is also another category, perhaps somewhat related to (4) above, in which the builder takes the old form of the longrifle as his starting point, and from there expands outward into new and contemporary “longrifle art”. Perhaps builders in this category would describe themselves as taking the art of the Longrifle to a new level. They don’t see the form of the Longrifle as fixed at all, and so eagerly explore tooling, techniques, and finishes that might be applied to the flintlock canvas as they develop it. HC is not an issue for them, as they are quite intentionally producing contemporary work. Builders working in this manner might choose to stay with the general architecture of a particular “school”, but otherwise develop the style, carving, etc. as they wish to see it developed. Their work may or may not also be “perfectionist” in nature, but the primary focus is in the artistic development.

This is not to say that all of us stay only within one or another of these tracks (although clearly some do). It’s probably common for our philosophies to evolve somewhat over time, and the direction we take probably says something about our personalities. And some of us probably vacillate quite a lot, depending on what we are working on at the moment! Some of us have strong preferences. Some of us are more nostalgic than others. (I tend to be one of the more nostalgic type.) But I really do think each of these various views has a lot to offer.

Anyway, those are some thoughts I just wanted to throw out there. I hope they generate some useful discussion.

Whetrock


« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 09:27:14 AM by Whetrock (PLB) »

Paul Griffith

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Re: philosophies of builders (some observations)
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2013, 03:05:42 PM »
#3 here. Can't do squat without my mill. Do people still sharpen chisels without a surface grinder?

There's another syndrom that applies to all this. Sort of how things tend to travel in full circles. A new first time builder lacks ability & knowledge to be comfortable relating to anyone.  As his experience grows he fits in & can relate to more & more & so on, eventually reaching a point where he can talk the talk with most everybody. Ultimately he will reach a point of extream ability & knowledge where he's once again uncomfortable relating to anyone. LOL

Paul

Offline James Wilson Everett

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Re: philosophies of builders (some observations)
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2013, 04:16:55 PM »
Whetrock,

Very astute comments you have posted, and surely truthful.  I think that some of the friction generated between those holding these differing philosophies is when we try to measure another's work by using our own personal yardstick.  Thanks for the insight!

Jim

Offline heinz

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Re: philosophies of builders (some observations)
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2013, 04:21:59 PM »
Whetrock,  Mark Silver in the Contemporary Rifle Association Journal, American Traditions,  over the last two year did an excellent series of article on the different approaches to building modern muzzle loading rifles focusing on the philosophical schools of reproducing the work.  
The tools and techniques used tend to influence the final product, sometimes subtle, sometimes marked.
I tend to use hand tools, although I have always referred to my drill press and pedestal grinder as the electric apprentices.  Each of those apprentices is 0ver 70 years old.  And although I rely heavily on plane, most, but not all, are "modern" metal bodied tools.
There is no "right" path to follow.  One of the first questions to ask is what interests you most, the product or the process. The second question is whether production rate is of importance to you.  
Four names that appear often on this forum that represent the edges of of the answers to those questions are, Jackie Brown, Hugh Toenjes, Ian Pratt, and Gary Brumfield.  
Take a look at their work, pass your own judgments.  Then try not to be judgemental and follow your own path

heinz
kind regards, heinz

oldarcher

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Re: philosophies of builders (some observations)
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2013, 05:29:45 PM »
Whetlock....very observant, and very well written. Thank you, I am always surprised on how strongly some folks defend "their way" of participating in our sport. I believe that every one who actually stocks ML rifles has some things to share and by gaining that knowledge my rifles may be improved. I am always looking for information and this Forum is the best place I have found to gain it. At some point in the stocking/building process we purchase products made with modern techniques. I believe that the difference in philosophy is simply at which point you use the tech available to us. NO ONE is right or wrong, we should do what we are happy with and allow our building to evolve in what ever path that pleases us.

whetrock

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Re: philosophies of builders (some observations)
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2013, 06:26:11 PM »
... One of the first questions to ask is what interests you most, the product or the process. The second question is whether production rate is of importance to you.  ...
heinz

Thanks, Heinz. Some of us are deeply interested in historical processes. Others are primarily interested in the finished "painting", so to speak. Market value of our labor is surely a big issue. Buyer's expectations also become a big issue for those building for pay.

Another thing I didn't mention earlier was the issue of motivation. It's hard to interpret what a guy's motivation might be when he posts a reply or an answer to a question. (Maybe it’s not even possible to interpret motivation, but it seems to be part of human nature to try anyway.)

For example, I really don't care one way or another if a builder wants to build this way or that, using this philosophy or that. But I'm a teacher at heart (and a consultant/trainer by trade) so I tend to answer with that motivation. If a guy asks a question about some basic technique, I might guess that he is fairly new to building. (I might be guessing incorrectly.) I might also guess that he may not yet know the difference between HC and contemporary. (And I might again be guessing incorrectly). If I point out that some element isn’t HC, my own motivation is simply to say, “You don’t have to do that if you don’t want to. The old guys didn’t do it. Maybe you know that already or maybe you don’t, but I thought I would mention it.”

If the guy posting the question is indeed a newer builder, he might find comments about HC to be helpful. But if already knows about such issues and he just prefers philosophy #4, he might interpret such comments about HC as a criticism of his work, or of his philosophy. In that situation, he might not think the comments are helpful, but rather irritating!


Offline Blacksmoke

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Re: philosophies of builders (some observations)
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2013, 07:02:39 PM »
Whetrock:  Since my name was mentioned on this thread I will respond by saying that my primary focus in the gunmaking realm is "workmanship"!  The next concern is HC including the use of mostly hand tools even it they are of contemporary manufacture.  After those two issues are met I will focus on doing ALL of the workmanship myself.  I have done a number of kits in my younger days only to be disappointed with them in terms of having to "repair" someone else's mistakes.  So now I do all of my own work - including the rifling.
It must be Germanic heritage but I tend to spend many hrs. trying to be perfectionistic where others will do a similar technique in much less time. For instance - if you take my lock out of the last rifle posted on this forum  you will find that the inside is just as "fine" as the outside.  Every part is polished and case hardened then polished again!  I want to put a smile on the face of the curator who disassembles the gun 100 yrs. from now.
It may be silly to some but that is my choice for the work that I leave behind.  I think we who are making rifles are also making a legacy and will be judged by our future peers even if it is a 100 yrs. or more.   I teach all of my understudies the importance of doing top notch work even if the project is only for themselves.  Some where in the future someone else is going to examine it and there is where the legacy comes into play.    That's enough of my philosophy,     Hugh Toenjes
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 09:54:28 PM by Blacksmoke »
H.T.

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: philosophies of builders (some observations)
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2013, 07:36:30 PM »
 I really have no complaint with the use of modern tools in the production of long rifles. What I do object to, is when we let modern tools influence parts we make for these rifles. The biggest offender in this department is the mill, IMO. Look at antique breechplug tangs, compared to modern made ones. Very often if a mill is used for the inlet the tang has a rounded end, and no taper in the length of the tang, all done to accommodate the mill. this is nothing more than a manufacturing shortcut, like in a mass produced kit gun. This bad habit of using the mill where it shouldn't be used, crops up again, in the use of lozenge shaped inlays, and escutcheons, in either metal or wood. The temptation to use the mill more than it should be used is seen all to often today, IMO.

                     Hungry Horse 

Offline rich pierce

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Re: philosophies of builders (some observations)
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2013, 07:47:16 PM »
Good discussion. 

I don't think there's much "heated debate" on this forum except strong cautions to beginners to stay away from specific power tools that could get them into trouble in a hurry.  People have their preferences and they evolve over time. 

Many pro builders who make traditional longrifles have their barrels inlet, ramrod holes drilled, and sometimes even a little profiling of a blank done, and use modern machinery during basic construction because it's more economical, but hand tools for shaping and finishing to achieve the desired look.

I think most on this forum recognize and value fine work whether it's done in their style or using the techniques they'd use, or not.
Andover, Vermont

Offline shifty

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Re: philosophies of builders (some observations)
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2013, 03:35:59 AM »
  I am glad that we have these individuals that build PC or HC if we didn't these schools would be lost. I love Hawken Rifles only have one that is anywhere near PC and it is my favorite (Kit Carson) , took me over two years to build it ,plus some help with info from Mr. Sells . but I love to just find an old CVA or Traditions in a  pawn shop or what knot and modify it to my liking ,I know it isn't worth anything to most of you but I learn something every time a redo one,and besides that a don't have the money to build the others. ;)

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: philosophies of builders (some observations)
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2013, 05:00:57 AM »
I like to get carried away in the story of the gun. Who used this gun, who built it, what cultures influenced its design? To me, a build is an adventure. I always like to try something new when building a gun, explore a new(to me) style. It has to be fun, it has to pique my interest. I feel very strongly about staying within a window of time, building something that would fit right in in the period of my concept.

But how I get there has little value to me. It doesn't matter much what tools get used, how the barrel is made, how the lock was produced, etc. I'll use a chainsaw to cut a blank out of a tree. A drill press to put in my lock bolts. None of this bothers me.

The thing I spend the most time on is the architecture. The shape of the stock, the contours, the transitions from one area to the next, the profile lines, etc. It's a very tactile yet visual experience. It's like designing a trout or a dolphin, or a beautiful woman. The color and finish is clothing, the carving and engraving is just jewelry.
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline Tom Currie

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Re: philosophies of builders (some observations)
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2013, 08:51:07 PM »
# 3 fits me best. Much like Acer I am best motivated when I have a story or scenario built in my head about where the rifle is coming from. That scenario defines design parmeters for me. I think I picked this mindset up from Eric Kettenburg's work years ago.