Need advice regarding hardening small siler frizzens.

[Rolf]

On a pistol project in the planing stage, I want to use all the lockpart for a small siler except the lock plate. I am debating wether to buy two complet locks or two kits.

My main worry is hardening the frizzen. I have a large propan torch that could do the job, but I'm a bit shaky at judging temperature by colors. This web site says UNFANNED COALS OF A WOOD FIRE APPROX. 1500F  http://www.blksmth.com/heat_colors.htm

Anyone tried hardening a frizzen in a fireplace?

Best regards
Rolf

[Bob Roller]

Rolf,
I have bought 3 or 4 late Ketland EXTERNAL parts kits from Jim Chambers. He hardens and installs
the frizzen and frizzen spring and then I make up an English style mechanisms
with 3 screw bridles,linked mainsprings and a "fly".
The fire place will work if the heat can be concentrated so the frizzen can be brought up
to a bright orange color and a carbon powder used on the face of the frizzen. It would be
better to buy two locks from Jim and then polish the inside of the plates and the front and
back of the tumbler and the cam area where the mainspring works and the same thing on
the mainsprings contact surface.
Getting back to the frizzen,quench it in thin,cool oil and after it cools,pick it out of the oil with
a magnet and polish it. Hold the frizzen by the upper edge and move the flame of the propane
torch over the pan cover part of the frizzen until it turns light blue and then take the torch away
and watch the color travel to where the frizzen's face and pan cover come together and then quench it again
in cool oil or warm water.
I hope this makes sense to you.

Bob Roller
 

[Long John]

Rolf,

I have hardened frizzens in my fire place and they have worked just fine.

I build a fire with hardwood logs.  Once the fire is going good with a good bed of coals beneath the burning logs, I place the frizzen, striking face down, on the coals.  When the back of the frizzen is about the same color as the coals I grab it by the pivot and quench in #2 fuel oil (diesel fuel).

Then I take the hardened frizzen and test with a file.  The file should not cut the striking face of the frizzen but skate across it instead.  In every case that I have done the frizzen passed the test.

Then I polish the frizzen bright.  Then I grab the frizzen by the striking part with tongs and heat the pivot with a propane torch until the oxidation colors begin the appear.  The colors will progress away from the source of heat.  The more slowly you heat the wider the color bands are.  When the pale yellow color has made the right angle bend between the pan cover part and the flint striking part of the frizzen I quench in fuel oil (diesel fuel).

This process has worked for me.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

[Joe S]

My main worry is hardening the frizzen. I have a large propan torch that could do the job, but I'm a bit shaky at judging temperature by colors.

You do not have to use colors to judge the correct temperature.  Use a magnet. 

Iron undergoes a crystalline phase change at approximately 1500 degrees where it will lose its magnetic properties.  It is this phase change, coupled with rapid cooling that results in hardening.  So, heat your frizzen with your propane torch if it is big enough to heat the frizzen to that temperature.  I have been able to heat frizzens to the correct temperature with two MAPP torches.

As the frizzen starts to get red, test it with your magnet.  When the magnet no longer sticks, quench the frizzen in oil.

To temper the frizzen, Chambers recommends placing it in an oven at 375 degrees for an hour, then turn off the oven and let the frizzen cool with the oven.  It is also a common practice to temper the tail of the frizzen to blue.  This is easily done with propane.

[Hungry Horse]

 I use an acetylene torch to heat the frizzen, and quench in oil. I temper in the oven. I have had great results.


                    Hungry Horse

[Old Bob]

I've tempered several Bud Siler frizzens by first hanging them by a wire through the pivot hole and heating them to a dark cherry red with an acetylene torch and quenching in a can of unused 40 wt. oil. Then I lay the frizzen on a metal lid with a lip or flange on the edge that has about a half inch of clean sand on it after I polish the face of the frizzen. I set the lid on a kitchen stove burner and light the burner. Make sure the face is turned toward the light and where you can easily see it. When the color runs to a light straw take the frizzen out and set it aside to cool. Now, this works on the frizzens that Bud sold. I used it on one Chambers frizzen as well as an L & R. I also use it on various lock parts, just changing the tempering color according to the part.

[Bob Roller]

No carbon restoration like boosting it with the now nearly
extinct Kasenit? I have tried simple oil and water hardening with no boost
and the spark was feeble at best.

Bob Roller

[LRB]

My main worry is hardening the frizzen. I have a large propan torch that could do the job, but I'm a bit shaky at judging temperature by colors.

 quote{You do not have to use colors to judge the correct temperature.  Use a magnet.  

Iron undergoes a crystalline phase change at approximately 1500 degrees where it will lose its magnetic properties.  It is this phase change, coupled with rapid cooling that results in hardening.  So, heat your frizzen with your propane torch if it is big enough to heat the frizzen to that temperature.  I have been able to heat frizzens to the correct temperature with two MAPP torches.

As the frizzen starts to get red, test it with your magnet.  When the magnet no longer sticks, quench the frizzen in oil.

To temper the frizzen, Chambers recommends placing it in an oven at 375 degrees for an hour, then turn off the oven and let the frizzen cool with the oven.  It is also a common practice to temper the tail of the frizzen to blue.  This is easily done with propane.} quote

________________________________________________________________

 Steel looses magnetic draw at 1414°. Not 1500°. Common table salt melts at 1474° which is the ideal temp for quenching 1095 steel, which these  are made from. 1095 steel really requires a fast quench for max hardness. Canola oil at about 125° is widely cosidered the fastest oil quench if you don't have commercial formulated oil. If you over heat by much, the steel will get grain growth causing weakness. Over heating 1095 will also cause the extra carbon in 1095 to pool in groups, also causing weakness. When tempering in a kitchen range, you will get a more even heat in the frizzen if it is buried in dry sand, and after the time is up, remove the frizzen and air cool. There is no need to slow cool it. Slow cooling is acually detrimental to the hardness. 375° to 385° for an hour at least, is a good temp range and time, but use a separate oven thermometer. Do not trust your range setting. Get the oven pre-heated to the correct temp before cooking the frizzen.

[Jim Kibler]

One misconception was mentioned.  Steel becomes non-magnetic because it reaches the Curie temperature.  It is NOT because of a crystaline structure change.  The Curie temperature has to do with the electron spin directions changing.  The temperature of the crystaline structure change varies with carbon content.  The Curie temperature is relatively constant. 

[Acer Saccharum]

I've hardened frizzens using charcoal as fuel in a forge. I packed the frizzen in pea charcoal in a small metal can with a lid. Heated can to bright orange for an hour, then dumped contents of can into warm water.

The Chambers instructions say oil for a quench, and water may cause fracturing. I did crack a chambers frizzen by hardening in water.


So take your chances hardening in water.

[LRB]

  Warm brine is less risky than water. The salt in the brine disrupts and disperses the vapor jacket that forms aound the frizzen when the hot steel enters, cooling the part faster, and making the steel harder than if oil quenched, but more important, much more evenly, and it is a less violent quench. BUT, there is still a risk of cracking. Not so much as with water, but more risk than an oil quench. 

[flehto]

I've hardened Siler frizzens by wrapping wire through the pivot hole, inserting into a 4" lg piece of pipe w/ an endcap that has a few 1/4"  holes  and heating w/ a Mapp Gas torch. The pipe greatly concentrates the heat. When an orange -red color is reached, quenched in motor oil. The kitchen oven set at 375 degrees is used for tempering and has been checked w/ a thermal bridge for accuracy. The pivot/toe area is drawn back w/ a Mapp Gas torch 'til a bright blue. These frizens have performed well.....Fred

[LRB]

  Red-orange is what I see at the right temp also, but not everyone sees color the same. Motor oil is one of the poorest oils than can be used to quench steel, but if it works for you, and you like it, then use it. Just know that there are better and much less toxic oils one could use and get even better results.

[bgf]

I believe the quench used to harden may also affect the temper required.  Quenching in ice water (not a great idea) will make the steel harder (and possibly more broken) than quenching in warm oil of some type, so they may require being drawn back to different temperatures later to get the desired hardness.  I think this is what happens with some frizzens like the L&R I have.  Drawing to 375 didn't have any noticeable affect, but going to 400 gave lots more sparks.  Just something to keep in mind.  Start at a low temperature to temper, but be prepared to go up a little if it is still too hard.  Probably quenching in (preferably vegetable) oil and tempering at 375dF will work just fine.

[flehto]

The motor  oil I've been using is very old. but still works. ....what are some better choices?.....Fred

[Acer Saccharum]

I've heard that automatic transmission fluid is good. (I've no experience with this) I use a medium weight cutting oil. Probably bad to use with its additives.

[Michael]

I use Brownells 'Tough Quench' with very good results.

[LRB]

  Acer, ATF will work reasonably well with 01 steel, but is a bit slow in cooling 1095, and produces toxic fumes when the part is quenched.

BGF, what you say is true, but the goal in hardening steel is to try and get it to the max in hardness. The hardened condition of steel is called Martensite. The strongest condition of steel is Martensite. Strength in this case is defined as resistance to deformation. Martensite is brittle, so we want tempered Martensite for most uses, as an end result. The more Martensite formed in steel, the stronger it is. L&R is probably getting more Martensite than some others with a better quench medium, and as you say, might need a higher temper. There are also other factors involved with strength regarding the grain size and carbide distribution.
   All in all, regardless of the methods used or not used, to get a frizzen to spark to your satisfaction, go with what you feel works best for you. If you are happy with your results, what more can be said?

[LRB]

I use Brownells 'Tough Quench' with very good results.

  As I said, if you are satisfied with your results, that is what counts in the end, but Tough Quench is a bit slow in cooling 1095. At least for optimal hardness.

[BJH]

Although I haven't heat treated a frizzen in some years, my favorite quenching medium is olive oil. I use the inexpensive type. Heaven only knows if it's a fast or slow quench but it works well for me when I forge and heat treat chisels etc. Pluss it does not stink up the shop, it makes the wife wonder what the heck i'm cooking. Pluss even indoors, it doesn't trigger my asthma like a lot of other smoke will. Relatively non toxic? As far as surface de carb, I dress off the working face of the frizzen lightly with a belt sander removeing maybe .005-.010. Now we are back to un de carbed steel. This results in a better sparking frizzen. If you use oxy-acetene use a gas rich flame and it will actually add carbon to the part. BJH

[Bob Roller]

I have used 10-40 motor oil for at least 50 years and the results speak
for themselves. Results to me are final,methods are what they are and
vary widely from person to person on this forum.What works is EXACTLY
that.

Bob Roller

[flehto]

My "old" quenching oil is 10W40 motor oil...thanks for the confirmation. Will have to replenish my supply.

LRB is correct....a more complete change to Martensite, the harder and more stable will be the tool steel.  When serving my tool and diemaker apprenticeship many years ago, we were  able to make many of our tools and vises and to ensure stability over the years, we "deep froze" the vises after quenching so that the change to Martensite was complete. Periodically checked my highly accurate vises throughout the years and they remained as accurate as when new......Fred

[Old Bob]

I have used 10-40 motor oil for at least 50 years and the results speak
for themselves. Results to me are final,methods are what they are and
vary widely from person to person on this forum.What works is EXACTLY
that.

Bob Roller

Same here, just not as long. I replaced a frizzen on a rifle I built 23 years ago last fall that I hardened with 10-40 and tempered on the stove top as described earlier. It was so thin you could just about shave with it but it still threw sparks like when it was new. The only things wrong with it were the toe was worn way down and the pivot hole was wallered out so bad it was floppy. I could've fixed it, but I had several new frizzens and it was a lot less work to temper a new one than work on that one.