PSJ and Co

[kipk9]

Hi all, im a real newbie to this forum, but the urge to know more about longrifle topics is increasing exponentially, due to a couple of attic finds, and a subject that I now realize has some really dedicated followers and collectors. This is a subject of growing facination for me (esp.  as a former brit) ... and it looks like im hooked.
 
 It started with the usual (and very lucky) attic find in clearing out the grandmothers old house to sell it (buiit late 1800s)- Hidden in the attic rafters, wrapped in sacking, We found a rough and obviously well used longgun with no trigger or lock, unsigned, ill get to that in another post when i figure out how to upload some pictures of it.

with it were two separate percussion cap trigger locks. One was in very bad shape-  very rusty, clearly had been twisted and obviously broken, no trigger, no identifiers or engraving, it was so warped it did not seem to fit the gun.  The other was a black silverish, signed "PSJ and Co" and "Warranted", and had a duck hunting scene on it. quite attractivel   This is a double trigger device, fits into the longrifle body, but the single screw is stripped.   

 I was actually looking for more info on "PSJ and Co" - Theres not much on the internet, but i came across one post on this forum  that indicates it stood for Patrick S Justice, who made trade locks at the early part of the CW? and made a lot of "junky" guns?     I just wanted to know if someone had more info on PSJ to share with the forum, if the locks are common, and if there was a good reference.
Thanks

   

[Don Stith]

I have handled a number of PSJ rifles that were well made. Some were being billed as S Hawken rifles They weren't but  the workmanship was equivalent. They were halfstock rifles made for the western trade. Do not have the collectible value  of a Hawken, but are good quality.

[Dphariss]

Hi all, im a real newbie to this forum, but the urge to know more about longrifle topics is increasing exponentially, due to a couple of attic finds, and a subject that I now realize has some really dedicated followers and collectors. This is a subject of growing facination for me (esp.  as a former brit) ... and it looks like im hooked.
 
 It started with the usual (and very lucky) attic find in clearing out the grandmothers old house to sell it (buiit late 1800s)- Hidden in the attic rafters, wrapped in sacking, We found a rough and obviously well used longgun with no trigger or lock, unsigned, ill get to that in another post when i figure out how to upload some pictures of it.

with it were two separate percussion cap trigger locks. One was in very bad shape-  very rusty, clearly had been twisted and obviously broken, no trigger, no identifiers or engraving, it was so warped it did not seem to fit the gun.  The other was a black silverish, signed "PSJ and Co" and "Warranted", and had a duck hunting scene on it. quite attractivel   This is a double trigger device, fits into the longrifle body, but the single screw is stripped.   

 I was actually looking for more info on "PSJ and Co" - Theres not much on the internet, but i came across one post on this forum  that indicates it stood for Patrick S Justice, who made trade locks at the early part of the CW? and made a lot of "junky" guns?     I just wanted to know if someone had more info on PSJ to share with the forum, if the locks are common, and if there was a good reference.
Thanks

   

Photos would be a great help.

Dan

[oakridge]

Philip S. Justice & Co. of Philadelphia contracted to provide rifles to the government. Some were of their manufacture and some were made by others. Obviously, Justice also provided locks to the gunsmith trade, as I have seen several on rifles by various makers. The lock alone certainly doesn't indicate that Justice made the gun. Photos?

[kipk9]

Hi Experts,
I havent figured out how to upload images directly to this site yet, BUT the following site (forum on gun values board) has the pictures, with the PSJ lock found with the rifle in position.  The PSJ  double trigger lock might have been separate due to the stripped screw. The gun is pretty much as found, except ive done a gentle wipe it down of the stock with a damp cloth and some dilute murphys oil soap.  It was like it had been left with caked mud on it after use and then never touched again.... but we don't know the story, im afraid.   We're lucky to have found it.... a real discovery- a pity our grandparents no longer live to tell us its origins. They lived in the house (and their parents we think) as long as we can remember- at least back to turn of the Century. We know grandmas father was a hunter.  The house was in washington county PA.

I note the obvious hexagonal bore- does this mean its a Whitworth type hunting rifle?  It does not appear loaded. As i said, i can find no signature, but the patch box has a name stamp "b something er" but ive not cleaned it yet- advice on that? as you can see in the photo, its caked in bluish crud.

what do you think?

http://www.gunvaluesboard.com/an-attic-find-can-you-help-me-with-more-info-in-our-grandmothers-house-cl...-2687504.html

thanks

 

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Nice looking gun!!

[Dphariss]

Nice.
The stock design is New England looking. The bore appears to be large enough to be a "Bear Rifle".
The barrel looks to be swamped. Not all that common for a rifle of this vintage.
Quite a find indeed.

Dan

[Majorjoel]

Very interesting grip rail on the trigger guard. One I have not seen before. Another unusual detail is the banana shaped dip of the lock plates lower edge. A feature from very early flintlocks. Nice find from the rafters.

[Longknife]

Kip, The maker of the gun usually signed or stamped their name on the top barrel flat between the rear sight and the breech. Look real close as you get a lot of wear there. You asked on the other board if it possibly had Whitworth rifling, I really doubt it. The muzzles on these old guns were usualy enlarged (coned, funneled) with files or a tool to make them easier to load, you will probably find that an inch or so down the bore it gets smaller. "Bullets" for the gun would be pure lead round balls .005 to .010 smaller than the bore. The bore will need "slugged" to verify the true bore size. If you want to shoot it you need to let some knowledgeable person inspect it, to verify that it is safe to shoot. This might require pulling the breech plug and drum and freshing or at least cleaning the bore.....DO NOT shoot it before having it inspected...Ed





 

[Mike L]

This rifle appears to be very similar to a Henry marked rifle I owned several years ago, it also had a PSJ lock. I now own a J. Henry & Son rifle marked both on the barrel and lock. Both rifles are of very similar stock architecture, placement of barrel wedge, also same trigger guards though yours appears to be slightly bent at the tail. I do not see a nose cap in your pictures, does it appear to have had one?
I like the untouched look of your rifle, I would not do any heavy cleaning.

Mike

[mr. no gold]

Love these lucky finds; thank you for showing it to us. Don't think that it would be appropriate to do too much other than a wipe down with a dry cloth now and then. Maybe a coat of wax. One thing that you might want to attend to is the build up of verdigris on the inside of the box lid. It could eventually result in bronze rot which is not possible to reverse. Just scrape it off with a plastic or wood tool so that there isn't any damage to the lid. You can lightly oil it afterward to slow the formation of more green. Neat gun and just out of the attic, literally; see what you can find out on the history of the old thing.
Dick

[kipk9]

i followed the advice of "mr no gold" (thanks!) and got the "verdigris" (not familar with that term)- off the inside of patchbox lid.  There is a stamped name in there (we looked for hours trying to find names on the barrel with a microscope, to no avail) but name on inside of lid is "(D or B)-I-E-?-?-(T or G) E R.   does this look familiar to anyone? does it help  in maker ID?

thanks
kipk9 

[Mike L]

I have an H.E. Leman (signed on the barrel) full stock with the same box. It to has letters that I cannot make out fully on the inside of the lid. They are cast in not stamped, possibly has to do with who cast or made the part. The rifle makers name will typically be on the barrel if it is signed, could be lightly stamped or even worn so much that it is hard to see. You need to look closely on the barrel, many are not signed.