Author Topic: Cheif Joseph's Leman Rifle  (Read 9480 times)

Offline redheart

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 599
Cheif Joseph's Leman Rifle
« on: February 12, 2013, 07:04:13 AM »
Gents,

I was looking at the pic's of Nez Perce Cheif Joseph's Leman rifle and was marveling at how short it was.
 I'm aware that the plains Indians weren't crazy about carrying a virtual flag pole on horseback, but this baby looks really short.
It looks so very short that I have trouble believing that it could have left the Leman factory in that configuration.
Do you guys think think that it was shortened by a local smith or by the Nez Perce themselves?
Who has this gun?
Does anyone know what caliber it is, what the bbl. length is and whether it is a smoothbore or rifled.
D-mn it, If I can find this information I can die a happy man. (I hope!!)

whetrock

  • Guest
Re: Cheif Joseph's Leman Rifle
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2013, 05:35:56 PM »
I don't have answers to your question, but was curious enough about the rifle to look it up. Here's a Park Service page with photos for those interested in seeing it. I'm assuming that this is the one you were asking about. (If this isn't it, can you direct us to a page that might show it?)  Site says the barrel was only 59.8 cm (about 23 1/2 inches).

http://www.nps.gov/history/museum/exhibits/nepe/exb/contact_change/1877War/NEPE9741(2)_Rifle-Detail.html

« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 05:39:34 PM by Whetrock (PLB) »

Dogshirt

  • Guest
Re: Cheif Joseph's Leman Rifle
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2013, 05:48:34 PM »
It MAY be in the museum at Lapwai, Id. It has a very large NP collection. I'll see if I can find a link.

Offline redheart

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 599
Re: Chief Joseph's Leman Rifle
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2013, 05:56:22 PM »
Whetrock,

Thanks, This is indeed the rifle I was asking about and the photo is the best one I've seen of it. Now, thanks to you I know the caliber, barrel length and since it's a .45 it's highly unlikely to be a smoothbore and it's obviously been shortened since the rear sight has been moved back. It's easy to understand why. A .45 Leman with a 1" across the flats barrel would be a heavy beast to say the least!, You've answered all of my questions. Now I can indeed die a happy man! ;)
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 06:04:47 PM by redheart »

Offline pathfinder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 731
Re: Cheif Joseph's Leman Rifle
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2013, 06:24:02 PM »
Being a smoothbore shooter and lover,that is a VERY attractive rifle! The patina is awesome. I love the brass tacks and their application. Look's a lot nicer uneven like that rather than laser straight.

Thanks for the link!
Not all baby turtles make to the sea!  Darwinism. It’s works!

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: Cheif Joseph's Leman Rifle
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2013, 06:31:35 PM »
Appears to have been built as a full length stock.
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline shifty

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 429
Re: Cheif Joseph's Leman Rifle
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2013, 06:34:20 PM »
  I really like the looks of that rifle.

Offline duca

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 579
Re: Cheif Joseph's Leman Rifle
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2013, 07:50:46 PM »
WOW! Very cool.
...and on the eighth day
God created the Longrifle...

Offline Topknot

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 463
    • www.yahoo.com
Re: Cheif Joseph's Leman Rifle
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2013, 08:13:06 PM »
I really like that rifle! You can tell he used it alot.

                                          topknot
TIM COMPTON, SR.

    layover to catch meddlers!

Offline pathfinder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 731
Re: Cheif Joseph's Leman Rifle
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2013, 08:20:55 PM »
Chuck Burrow's is the guy to make the kit for this piece! I'd love to see what he'd come up with! Cant wait till MY sheath gets here in the next few week's from him.
Not all baby turtles make to the sea!  Darwinism. It’s works!

Offline gunmaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 691
  • the old dog gunmaker
Re: Cheif Joseph's Leman Rifle
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2013, 08:35:00 PM »
I woulda gifted him with my "Lil Fuzze" if I had the chance.  One of the great american's of his time....Tom

Offline pathfinder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 731
Re: Cheif Joseph's Leman Rifle
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2013, 03:35:50 AM »
I woulda gifted him with my "Lil Fuzze" if I had the chance.  One of the great american's of his time....Tom

Who, Chuck or Chief Joseph? LOL!  I'm going to google him since I know nothing of him and your comment Tom made me curiouse.
Not all baby turtles make to the sea!  Darwinism. It’s works!

Offline RAT

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 699
Re: Cheif Joseph's Leman Rifle
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2013, 07:23:08 PM »
Jack Brooks makes an excellent Leman. The patterns he uses were taken directly from an original. His artificial striping (faux curly maple) is spot-on.
Bob

firelock-inc

  • Guest
Re: Cheif Joseph's Leman Rifle
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2013, 09:07:29 PM »
Jack Brooks makes the very best Leman Rifles that you can find.

Jack has worked on at least three Leman Indian Rifles for me.

The Chief Joseph Rifle is cut back, as you can see there is only one
rod guide. 

One of my rifles had the buck horn sight moved back and filed down.
It also had the frount sight missing and jack did an excellent job of replacing it.

Rickp


Offline David Rase

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4320
  • If we need it here, make it here. Charlie Daniels
Re: Cheif Joseph's Leman Rifle
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2013, 10:26:37 PM »
Ditto on the Jack Brooks Leman rifle kits.  Spot on!
David

Offline Chuck Burrows

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1218
    • Wild Rose Trading Company
Re: Cheif Joseph's Leman Rifle
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2013, 10:38:08 PM »
While this rifle may have been shortened by it's manufacturing date (1850's or 1860's) Leman's were being sold specifically to the western trade with very short barrels lengths such as 24" and 30" per period sales orders which were convenient for horseback hunting as practiced by many western tribes.
Leman continued to make muzzleloaders like this one up until the mid-1880's
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 10:38:49 PM by Chuck Burrows »
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

54ball

  • Guest
Re: Cheif Joseph's Leman Rifle
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2013, 06:38:28 PM »
 If you look you can see where the sights have been moved on the barrel. Another clue that it was shortened?

Offline Captchee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 768
Re: Cheif Joseph's Leman Rifle
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2013, 08:10:04 PM »
my question would be which Joseph was this rifle attributed to.
 you do realize that yah-lat-kekt “Hinmatóowyalahtqit”
, the person most people  recognize  was young Joseph .
Tuekakas was youn josephs father . Both were principle band cheifs of the Walla Walla  Nez Pierce .
 Old Joseph  died in 1871  and young Joseph  became the principle . So more then likely  the rifle your looking at  may very well have been  old josephs not yah-lat-kekt .
 Thats “IF “ the rifle is attributed correctly in the first place .
 As to why I say that . Well I  grew up on the NP Rez at Lapwai  and I can tell you as a boy  just about everyone  was a descendant or claimed to have items that belonged to  Joseph.
 That was well before there was a cultural center at Lapwai  .
 As to information , the gun  if recognized  is either at Lapwia or Colville  as those were the two main reservations where the people were sent . if young Joseph actually had the rifle at the time  he left  Chilocco. But then lets also remember that Chilocco and all the others schools of that time were about killing off  the cultures of the peoples who  ended up there and replacing them with government reliance and a dependency on agriculture  for sustenance .

Now the NP service says that this was Young josephs rifle   that he used  when he was exiled to Oklahoma
 Now maybe that’s me , but I find that rather odd considering the time frame. Its possible I guess . But  frankly IMO it doesn’t fit  but that’s neither here or there . The fact is that it may very well be true . But I wouldn’t  trust the US government or an Indian school to get anything right when it comes to American Indians or the history of  any of our peoples  .  Frankly the rifle could as easily been one of Quanah Parkers or anyone else for that mater .

 then why an old outdated  muzzleloader  when according to the Smithsonian. Joseph surrendered a lever action rifle in 1877 . Which by the way , they say they also have ..
 But them maybe   it was figured he wouldn’t be a threat with such a rifle ??? 

 But putting all that aside and speaking of the rifle itself . Ya it appears to be cut down from a full stock .
 But again why would that have been done  in the time frame  by Joseph, in Oklahoma .
 By 1877  the herds were gone . So why the need for a short  runner type rifle ?
 But then if it was cut down , why the  use of a nose cap ?
Which I would doubt would have been done  or found needed  if it was  done  by  an AI who wished to   shorten the barrel .

anyway ,  thats my thoughts on it
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 08:24:08 PM by Captchee »

Offline Captchee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 768
Re: Cheif Joseph's Leman Rifle
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2013, 07:09:50 PM »
http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/

  Tim C.


 Tim are you  just posting another photo link or are you suggesting something else ?
 Im finding rather odd that   in this forum where so many  hold  such a strict interpretation of authenticity
 That  we would be accepting the attributing of this rifle .
 that’s what im questioning  here .
 Now if we are want an example of a cut down leman   then there you go . But past that  it’s a stretch to say the least

Offline Tim Crosby

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18391
  • AKA TimBuckII
Re: Cheif Joseph's Leman Rifle
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2013, 08:28:27 PM »
http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/

  Tim C.


 Tim are you  just posting another photo link or are you suggesting something else ?
 Im finding rather odd that   in this forum where so many  hold  such a strict interpretation of authenticity
 That  we would be accepting the attributing of this rifle .
 that’s what im questioning  here .
 Now if we are want an example of a cut down leman   then there you go . But past that  it’s a stretch to say the least

  Just a link, I removed my post since it is the same info given in the second post and not to confuse things.

      Tim C.