cutting brass paterns with chisels

[Luke]

hey guys always wondered how those patterns were cut into brass patch boxes,and how other patterns were cut before the jeweler saw came around,did they cut the brass with chisels?thanks luke

[Dave B]

Luke, I believe you are referring to the piercings of the finial and side plates. It is possible to use a chisel but more than likely they were cast with them. I have several examples of original patch boxes that were cast with piercings. They are percussion era patch boxes how ever. Jewelers saws were readily available in the golden age of rifle making. One technique I have used during a demo on captured lid patch boxes entailed drilling a series of holes and using the chisel to cut along the dotted line to remove the center section for the lid.

[Acer Saccharum]

I'd practice up on scrap to develop technique before working on the real deal. Metal can get really distorted and stretched by the chisel method, and the thicker it is, the more stress you induce.

I'm not familiar with the cut-out with a chisel method, but Gary Brumfield has mentioned it before. It is definitely worth exploring.

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

Although we cannot document the express use of a jewlers saw by an 18th c gunsmith, these tools were readily available at least by the mid 18th c and probably before that time.  So, it is likely, if not exactly provable, that parts such as the intricate patch boxes were made using a jewlers saw.  Here is a photo of an original 18th c jewlers saw frame.



Here is a scan from the mid 18th c Wyke tool catalog showing the same tool.



Jim

[bluenoser]

James

Thanks for posting the photo of the 18th century jeweller's saw frame.  It is a dead ringer for one I picked up at a yard sale a couple of years ago.  I knew it was old but had no idea it dated to the 18th century.
I do know it works a heck of a lot better than my modern made frame.
Laurie

[JCKelly]

I use one of those old saws as well, as in the photo. Probably got mine in Michigan so it sure wou'n't be 18th cent'y

[pathfinder]

I drilled a series of hole's,then finished with file's

[Dave B]

it works the same with brass as sheet steel. As you can see you just drill out the line then use a chisel to cut the web out between.

[jrb]

In his book, The Skills of a Blacksmith, volume1, Mark Aspery shows how to forge a chisel to be used in cutting out metal sheet, both non-ferrous and steel up to 1/8" thick. He starts with a 1/2" round bar, tapers the end until about 1/4" at the point, files a 1/8" wide sharp edge perpendicular to the chisel's shank, but at one side of that edge he files what he describes as a leading edge, 1/8" wide at a 45 degree angle to the first edge. In the end the total chisel length is about 4 1/2" long.
No hole drilling in the sheet metal needed.
He pictures an acanthus leaf (kinda an intricate shaped leaf)cut from 14 guage steel and a fancy script letter M pierced into a sheet and they look REALLY neatly cut.
In a picture he seems to be holding the chisel about vertical and guiding it with his pinky finger.
John

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

I think that the initial question was intended to solicit information on how the job was done in the original period.  The idea of drilling a series of intersecting holes to remove the bulk of the sheet metal to form an intricate outline would be exceedingly difficult or impossible using period tooling.  Firstly, drilling any hole with an 18th c brace and fishtail bit is really a lesson in patience, to drill such a series of holes would be a tale too long in the telling.  Although I have not done this, I believe that the fishtail metal drill bits would grab and break if the second hole overlapped the first hole.  This is possible with a modern twist drill, but very difficult with original tooling.

Jim

[rich pierce]

(written while Jim was posting the above)  Back toward the question of "how did they do it?"  Drilling is easy now with a drill press, but harder back in the day with a bow drill.  Drilling 200 holes was probably not the way to go for efficiency in the 1700's, so I favor the cold chisel or jeweler's saw or casting a form as most likely period solutions.

[tallbear]

How many 18th century Patchboxes have piercing's ?

[Jim Kibler]

I can't seem to keep jewler's saw blades on hand and they're only a few clicks of the mouse away.  How about an eighteenth century craftsman?  How about the cost of blades in the 18th century.  Certainly much higher as compared to mass produced ones today.  The point is there are other ways to cut out a box including using a simple chisel.  Seems to mee that the use of consumable products, including jewelers saw blades, in the period must be looked at carefully before drawing conclusions.

[Hungry Horse]

 The only place I have seen signs of cutting having been done with a chisel, is on some of the more primitive trade silver. Some of the early broaches, and bracelets, show signs of having been cut with a narrow chisel, and then cleaned up with a file. These pieces also have round holes, that appear to have been punched, with a round punch, and then had the distorted back filed off. I have not seen this method used on patchboxes.

                    Hungry Horse

[Jim Kibler]

You would not know if it had been done on a patchbox!  Afterall they are cleaned up with a file afterwards. 

[tallbear]

I think where a lot of us get into trouble is when we compare our limited experience in using 18th century tool and methods with those that lived and worked in the 18th Century.They would think nothing of drilling mutible holes with a bow drill or cutting out a patch box with a chisel.It is how they were trained and all they know and practice.It's like a modern woodworker cutting out dovetails in wood.Even those of us who have done a lot of it using period methods ,we will never be as comfortable with 18th century tools and methods as original 18th Century workers.An 18th Century woodworker thought no more of cutting out dovetails by hand  than putting their pants in the morning.

Mitch Yates

[rich pierce]

Discussed last summer
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=22641.30

[jrb]

Although i haven't yet made and tried a chisel as i was trying to describe from Mark Aspery's book, i think the 1/8" 45 degree leading edge of the chisel would cleanly "shear" the metal, pretty slick i bet.

[JTR]

Also keep in mind that a lot of early patchboxes were made of pretty thin brass, generally only about 25 thousands thick, the few cast boxes being the exception. That thickness can be easily cut with scissors or shears.
And silver inlays were generally a good deal thinner than that.

John 

[Mark Elliott]

At first I thought the question that started this thread was silly, but I changed my tune as a the discussion continued.   Jewelers saws were available, but although I hadn't thought about it before,  I tend to agree with Jim.    I don't think a method would have been employed frequently that used a lot of consumables.   That is part of the reason I scrape rather than use sand paper.   I primarily use a jewelers saw for piercings and a hacksaw and files for the perimeter shaping of patchboxes.   However,  I think I will have to look more seriously at using cold chisels for cutting metal.   I don't know why it has taken me this long to come to this realization.

I relate a story that should have cued me in a long time ago.   When I was right out of college about 30 years ago,  I worked a year with my father as a detailer draftsman at a company that made custom furniture and fixtures for banks, schools, hospitals and the likes.   One of the projects I was given was to design and build a motorized ceiling mirror for a cooking demonstration area.   As part of the build,   I had to make a large cover panel with a slot cut in the middle.    I was working with an old Greek cabinet maker who was in his seventies or eighties at the time and was trained in the old country in the traditional apprenticeship system.    I believe that I asked him for a jig saw or something like that to cut out that slot.    He told me that wasn't the way to do it and handed me a chisel out of his tool box.   

[Habu]

Years ago, I was helping a friend get a rifle completed to be awarded as a prize in an upcoming match.  He had the piercings for the patchbox about half-done when the last jeweler's saw blade broke.  Since there was a time crunch, he glued the patchbox blank upside down to a piece of thicker brass, laid it out again with his pattern, and proceeded to cut the rest of it out with a graver.  There was a bit more file work to do to get the edges prepped for inletting, but overall it went about as fast as using a jeweler's saw. 

I'm not saying this is a period technique--I really don't know.  But it does avoid the problems that accompany the use of consumable tools. 

[Luke]

hey guys thanks for all the info,i feel good knowing i got that many good responses,it really helps me picking at all the masters brains,im going to try the chisel and see how it works.thanks agin for the help and patience.luke

[Hungry Horse]

 Just for starters, most patch boxes are about .040 thousanths thick, not .025. Jeweler saws were originally made for, and by, clockmakers. Hello, clock makers date back before many gunmakers. Most jewelers saw blades of today, are much more delicate than the blades of the 19th and 18th century.
 I have examined many old patchboxes and found no sign of chisel, and punch, being used.

                  Hungry Horse