Author Topic: .50 cal, .54 cal or .58 cal roundball preference  (Read 34676 times)

Offline Long John

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Re: .50 cal, .54 cal or .58 cal roundball preference
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2013, 06:10:20 PM »
I favor the 54 caliber.

The 50 can be loaded up to get a nice flat trajectory but at longer ranges it suffers in the retained velocity and, therefore, retained momentum metrics.  So the umproved trajectory doesn't get you much.

The 54 with its heavier ball retains momentum better but the ball is not so heavy and a rifle of good hunting weight (8 pounds or so) still doesn't kick so bad that you have a recoil issue.  I routinely get 2.5 inch groups at 75 yards off a rest if I am having a good day.

The 58 starts to kick pretty hard if you want to load it up hot enough to get a reasonable trajectory for long distances.  I am not out to prove I am a "macho" man - I already know I am an old f*rt.  With the 58 errors in judging distances can lead to less than ideal hits because of the more arched  trajectory at shootable loadings.

So the 54 just seems the best compromise to me between enjoyable shooting and terminal effectiveness.  Others will disagree.  That's their right.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

vtnunter52

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Re: .50 cal, .54 cal or .58 cal roundball preference
« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2013, 02:54:59 AM »
This is a really interesting topic as it appears on about all the forums.  We all have our own preferences, and should shoot the caliber and powder-ball combination that shoots best in that chosen firearm.
      I haven't found that I need anything but my TC 50.  It has harvested bear, deer, and travelled to the elk woods of Rogers Pass in Montana, and the moose woods of VT, NH, and ME.  I'm comfortable and confident in this combination, and with it know that within 80 yards, it will shoot where aimed.  It's more important to accurately be able to place your shot than,IMHO, the size if the projectile used.  I don't want to change any minds, you need to make your own decisions, shoot the rifle that you choose to the best of your ability, and most of all, have fun!

Crossed Arrows

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Re: .50 cal, .54 cal or .58 cal roundball preference
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2013, 07:08:50 AM »
I agree with your points on stock design.

My first muzlleloader was a TC New Englander in .54 and it fit me and was very comfortable to shoot, even when I experimented with heavier loads  That's another gun I should have kept.

My second muzzleloader was a .45 cal Pennsylvania flintlock that a fellow made from very good parts, but it had a thin stock, it did not fit me and it could be painful if I wasn't careful.

Now I am mostly shooting my TVM Early Virginia flintlock in .54 and it is a real pleasure to shoot.  Fits me like a custom shotgun and even though it weighs over 10#, it is a pleasure to carry for exercise and enjoyment in the hills.


Offline Bull Shannon

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Re: .50 cal, .54 cal or .58 cal roundball preference
« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2013, 09:27:36 AM »
My preference would be for the .54 for no other reason that compared to the other 50 caliber rifles that I have owned my .54 is the most accurate.  Keep in mind that I've never owned a .58 or shot one and I'm comparing my rifles only, but inside of 100 yards I trust my rifle and shooting ability to quickly and cleanly take anything I am likely to ever hunt.  At least in comparing the .50 & .54 GPR's I have owned, the .54 has a slightly lighter barrel and isn't as nose heavy as the .50's, something to think about if I was going to be out in the field and walking a lot.
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Offline hanshi

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Re: .50 cal, .54 cal or .58 cal roundball preference
« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2013, 11:54:24 PM »
Most of my deer were taken with either a .50 or a .45; I didn't use the .54 enough for a valid comparison.  Though I'm not bothered by recoil, I've seen no particular need to ever go larger, with the exception of my .62 smoothbore.

I once owned a .58 and liked it.  But the .45 did the same job with less of everything.
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Crossed Arrows

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Re: .50 cal, .54 cal or .58 cal roundball preference
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2013, 11:21:07 PM »
I realize that many animals have been killed with a .45 patched roundball and with .36 and smaller, but I am not impressed by that caliber roundball.  I've shot mule deer with .45 PRB and did everything that I was supposed to do, shooting the animal broadside through the lungs while it was unaware of my presence at only 25yds and I waited over 30 minutes before quietly and carefully tracking it to where it lay.  It was still alive so I finished it off.  Field dressing it was where the disappointment came in - there just wasn't a lot of damage, compared to later .54 caliber kills and kills with highpower rifles.  I was convinced that a bad hit elsewhere in that animal would have been very bad - not the clean kill that I absolutely demand of myself.

So, if I am going to be a careful and responsible hunter, I have to keep harking back to Robert Ruark's addage: "Use enough gun," and that means the fifties or larger with patched roundball.  Of course, I live in Colorado where we have large animals.  Mule deer can be pretty big.  Elk are large animals and black bears can also get pretty big.  These animals who live in the mountains have to really work for a living.  Just moving around on the mountainsides is work, as many of you know from hunting out here and that makes the animal tough.  Tougher, I would say, than crop fed deer in farm lands so bigger patched balls are required.

We supposedly don't have grizzlies and I'm really not interested in hunting them with patched roundballs until I'm diagnosed with a very bad terminal illness.

blaksmth

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Re: .50 cal, .54 cal or .58 cal roundball preference
« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2013, 10:29:55 AM »
I too live in Colorado, I have killed many elk with a .58 cal rifle the ball will normally shoot clear through on a side shot with 95-100 gr of goex 2FF even shooting through both sholders, bigger is better i think if you dont mind the weight of a heaver gun.

  I now shoot a rifle with a .695 RB and 125 gr of Goex 2FF last elk i shot was looking at me straight on shot below the neck , the ball went clear down the spine breaking every vertebre  and stopped in the rear knee . i had shot it at the range and the ball shot 14 inches deep in a pinion stump at 50 yards.  That i had taken out to the range then brought home and split out the ball.
 I have shot elk at ranges approaching 100 yds with this rifle, but try to get closer if i can.

 Alot of folks use 50 and 54 but i have never had a elk get off wounded. heaver ball means more energy!!

Offline Topknot

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Re: .50 cal, .54 cal or .58 cal roundball preference
« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2013, 09:52:04 PM »
Sure, a .695 ball will definetely do the job well with abundant whompability but, not all shooters can stand that kind of recoil. I would recommend using a caliber .50 and above that you can shoot well without fear of the punishing recoil.  Shot placement is the name of the game.

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Offline Dphariss

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Re: .50 cal, .54 cal or .58 cal roundball preference
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2013, 11:40:22 PM »
I realize that many animals have been killed with a .45 patched roundball and with .36 and smaller, but I am not impressed by that caliber roundball.  I've shot mule deer with .45 PRB and did everything that I was supposed to do, shooting the animal broadside through the lungs while it was unaware of my presence at only 25yds and I waited over 30 minutes before quietly and carefully tracking it to where it lay.  It was still alive so I finished it off.  Field dressing it was where the disappointment came in - there just wasn't a lot of damage, compared to later .54 caliber kills and kills with highpower rifles.  I was convinced that a bad hit elsewhere in that animal would have been very bad - not the clean kill that I absolutely demand of myself.

So, if I am going to be a careful and responsible hunter, I have to keep harking back to Robert Ruark's addage: "Use enough gun," and that means the fifties or larger with patched roundball.  Of course, I live in Colorado where we have large animals.  Mule deer can be pretty big.  Elk are large animals and black bears can also get pretty big.  These animals who live in the mountains have to really work for a living.  Just moving around on the mountainsides is work, as many of you know from hunting out here and that makes the animal tough.  Tougher, I would say, than crop fed deer in farm lands so bigger patched balls are required.

We supposedly don't have grizzlies and I'm really not interested in hunting them with patched roundballs until I'm diagnosed with a very bad terminal illness.

If you are looking for lots of internal damage use a 270. When the ranges are somewhat extended the damage gets even less.  Even my 16 bore rifle with 140 gr of FF does not produce a lot of damage at range past 80 yards or so. But it kills stuff.
Shooting a mule deer with a 45 RB at 100 is not nearly as bad as shooting one with some modern rifle at 800-900 yards or more. This is the current fad in the west with some hunters BTW.
It goes back to WHERE ITS PLACED. I like using a 50 for deer and figure its pretty light for Elk. But I would not pass up a shot on that account. Animals are not bullet proof. The trouble comes from misplaced shots and a bad shot with a ML or a BPCR or a modern HP can all be equally bad.
I once shot a deer with a BP loaded 38-40. 180 gr FP copy of the old factory bullet. Shot  Mule Deer buck at about 40 yards, maybe less, deer ran the normal distance and piled up. Little bitty wound channels. Load was almost identical to the old factory loading. On average the deer would have run just as far had I made the same shot with a 45-70-350 or a 54 RB with 100 gr of powder. In fact I shot A mule deer doe at about 40 yards with my 16 bore rifle and it ran FARTHER even with the FAR, FAR greater internal damage. She was facing me and the shot made a huge hole where the top of the heart was. Massive instantaneous blood loss, easy blood trail (open grass land so I watched her fall) deer still turned 90 degrees and made 55 long steps.
The caliber needs to be ADEQUATE for the game. For deer a 45 has proven adequate. If the shot is placed right the deer will die in a few seconds. How far it travels in those few seconds? Thats up to the deer.
I have had them go 200 plus-minus shot with50 and 54 Rbs and pretty darned potent BPCRs, heavy hits, well placed.  Deer can cover a lot of ground before the brain winks out due to lack of oxygen.
Most people that drop deer in their tracks with MLs are shocking the spine. Few modern rifles, unless they really mess up a lot of meat, will drop a deer with the bullet only striking minor bones, muscle and organs like liver, lungs or heart.
So use an ADEQUATE caliber and PLACE the shot. This is by far the best advice.
Dan
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blaksmth

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Re: .50 cal, .54 cal or .58 cal roundball preference
« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2013, 12:37:27 AM »
  I wish i had the two formulas for bullet performance the two are MOMENTUM and LBS PER SECOND on a muzzle loader the two formulas i talk about really show that the heavier bullet and a lower velocity  really shines over a lighter bullet with higher velocity, a .58 cal or larger ball by thiese formulas will out do a lot of modern cartridges on bullet knock down.

But i will agree with the post on some people not liking the recoil or the weight of lugging a heavier rifle around., Here in Colo a lot of folks shoot( buffalo bullets), Maxis ect, to get more weight , but i still think that a larger dia ball is the way to go but this is only my thoughts , My rifle weighs about 12 lbs which can get heavy to pack

Crossed Arrows

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Re: .50 cal, .54 cal or .58 cal roundball preference
« Reply #35 on: February 18, 2013, 03:33:04 AM »
Very well thought out comments, guys. 

This is a good subject.  Lets keep it going.

Shootrj2003

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Re: .50 cal, .54 cal or .58 cal roundball preference
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2013, 11:13:42 PM »
I have to go with .54 big enough to be extra effective on the big critters,small enough for the economist,usually a little lighter per barrel length than a similar .50,it's my favorite front stuffer caliber too.and I find it accurate.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: .50 cal, .54 cal or .58 cal roundball preference
« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2013, 05:36:45 PM »
  I wish i had the two formulas for bullet performance the two are MOMENTUM and LBS PER SECOND on a muzzle loader the two formulas i talk about really show that the heavier bullet and a lower velocity  really shines over a lighter bullet with higher velocity, a .58 cal or larger ball by thiese formulas will out do a lot of modern cartridges on bullet knock down.

But i will agree with the post on some people not liking the recoil or the weight of lugging a heavier rifle around., Here in Colo a lot of folks shoot( buffalo bullets), Maxis ect, to get more weight , but i still think that a larger dia ball is the way to go but this is only my thoughts , My rifle weighs about 12 lbs which can get heavy to pack

Look up the Taylor Formula as well....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_KO_Factor

Dan
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Offline Dphariss

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He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Dphariss

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Re: .50 cal, .54 cal or .58 cal roundball preference
« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2013, 06:36:02 PM »
Taylor's formula favors bullet diameter and was really geared to jacketed bullets and smokeless powder. But he DID have an immense amount of experience.

A .498 RB (I have a mould that throws these) weighing 185 gr at 1500 FPS has a Taylor KO of 20. This is about the 75 yard impact velocity for a HV 50 cal load. At 2100 it makes 28.  A 495 gives 27.
The 535 ball at 1500 gives 26
The 575 at 1500 gives  35.  

 170 GR 30-30 at 1900 rates 14. At 2200 fps it rates 16.

My 16 bore rifle ball (.662, 437 gr)  at 1400 rates 58. 66 at the full muzzle velocity of 1600
Its modern equivalent, the 375 H&H 300 gr at  full MV runs in the low 40s.
Now will the 16 bore do everything a 375 will? No it will not. But back in the day Forsythe, who hunted in India, stated that the 16 bore was about as small as anyone would use for dangerous game. In modern day the 375 is considered to be minimum in most places.
Forsythe stated that his 69 caliber using a #15 ball hardened with mercury would shoot through an Indian Elephants head from side to side with 137 gr of powder.
While the 375 with a good solid will kill African Elephant with frontal brain shots, the 12-16 bore RB is unlikely to based on my reading. It takes something of 8 bore or larger for this and many used 6 and 4 bores.
Taylor's "African Rifles and Cartridges" and "Pondoro" are both well worth reading for anyone interested in  various cartridges performance on game and hunting dangerous game. Pondoro has a short account of killing African elephant and Rhino with a 10 smoothbore ML in "Pondoro".
With a .765 rb hardened  RB (weighing 650 gr in WW alloy) at 1500 fps we get a KO factor of 105.

Fun stuff and so long as comparing similar projectiles (comparing a .662 RB to a 375 300 gr solid for penetration is silly really) its probably pretty good. But expecting some major difference in effect on deer sized game between a 50 and a 58 RB? Shot placement is more important.
But I have only shot a few critters with a 58, it killed them. But then a 50-54 does too. But using a bigger bore, to a point anyway, is never a mistake. And for critters like elk I would rather have the 58 than the 50-54 just on ball weight alone and my 16 bore would be even better.

Dan

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Offline Hawken62_flint

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Re: .50 cal, .54 cal or .58 cal roundball preference
« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2013, 08:57:11 PM »
Like everyone else says, shot placement is critical.  I was told on my first trip west to hunt mule deer that I would be undergunned with my .45 caliber PA rifle.  I even had people wanting to lend me their .50s and .54s.  But, I told them that since I had shot that rifle for over two years and had won several matches with it, that I was comfortable with it and felt it would be fine.  End result was a nice 4 X 5 mule deer with one shot from the .45 with a round ball.  Shot thru the lungs, he went less than 30 yards.  I have since shot whitetails with the .45 and a .50 caliber with round balls, and one with a .54.  When you hit them in the right spot, they go down rather quickly.  That all said, one of my buddies went to a .62 for elk, as he shot one bull elk in the neck with a .54 and he just walked away (personally, I wouldn't have shot it in the neck).  He got upon it and put another .54 in the neck and it walked off the 2nd time.  It did go down, eventually, but he immediately came home and built a .62 for his next elk hunt.  Another friend has taken 2 dall sheep and a caribou with a flintlock in .54.  Some experts say that the .54 is the optimal caliber and even though you are throwing a bigger chunk of lead at them, you are not gaining much if any energy when the ball strikes the animal.  Again, I stress, shot placement, shot placement, shot placement.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 08:58:01 PM by Hawken62_flint »

Offline hanshi

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Re: .50 cal, .54 cal or .58 cal roundball preference
« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2013, 11:35:44 PM »
There have been some excellent points made in this thread; and it really boils down to what you're comfortable with.

Now, though I'm a fan of the .45 I have to admit it is not particularly impressive...on paper.  I've never needed more than one shot on whitetails with it and usually get complete penetration.  In my mind it holds (in muzzleloading) a position something like that held by the 30/30 in smokeless rounds.  It's great for deer and all around hunting/shooting but starts to stretch on bigger stuff.  I know from experience that it is a one shot killer up to at least 75 yards.  And as with all rounds you MUST hit well with it.  I've never killed an elk but, IMHO, elk are quite within the power range of the .45 prb.

I have to say my confidence would ebb somewhat using a .45 prb on the big deer.  I would happily use a .50 and not worry, in fact.  If I wanted a dedicated deer/elk rifle I'd get a .54.  I have a .54 in percussion but seldom hunt with it.  I've never used and will never use anything other than a prb.  If I need more gun I'd simply go to a bigger bore.  To paraphrase Patton, ..."the idea of using conicals is hateful to Americans" ;D

Recoil doesn't bother me but that doesn't mean I like it; I'd really just as soon avoid it.  The .54 is nice and my dream rifle is a .54 in flint.

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TickLick

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Re: .50 cal, .54 cal or .58 cal roundball preference
« Reply #42 on: March 09, 2013, 03:50:49 AM »
For deer, elk and bear shoot a .58 and use the longest barrel you can handle well.    A .58 has tremendous knock-down force.  In fact, one of Chambers' kits has a .60 caliber option.  That's a good option for those three animals.

When I was a boy I used to use a .45, because I could load 15 grains of powder for squirrels and 55 grains for deer.    But the three creatures you're after can all use the same heavy load.

I like to shoot bear from behind a tree.  That way I can rest the long barrel on a low limb for better accuracy, and climb the tree quickly if I miss!  Just  thought. =)   Have a great hunt.

Dogshirt

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Re: .50 cal, .54 cal or .58 cal roundball preference
« Reply #43 on: March 09, 2013, 05:06:09 AM »
I don't know about bear, I don't hunt them, but .58 and a long barrel is NOT needed for elk. A .50 will do the job if you do yours!

Offline Majorjoel

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Re: .50 cal, .54 cal or .58 cal roundball preference
« Reply #44 on: March 10, 2013, 02:22:03 PM »
This is a very interesting and informative topic that I have really enjoyed hearing about all of your experiences in the hunting fields. I have been using muzzle loaders only for all of my hunting needs for about the last 12 years or so. In persuit of the northern Michigan white tail deer, I have had some very unusual experiences regarding calibers that make no real logical sense to me but thought I would share them. The first rifle I used to hunt with was a 45 cal. half stock flinter that I had built. It had a 35" barrel of unknown make. It liked 80 grains 3f Goex with a pillow ticked 44 cal. RB.  With 80 grains it drove tacks, with less, it was all over the place. I used this rifle for 4 seasons and took 4 deer with it. Each was shot within 40-60 yards and all dropped dead within their tracks on the spot. All deer were hit through the heart\lungs. I then built a 50 cal. fullstock using a swamped barrel 38" long.  With this rifle I hunted  for 2 seasons taking 2 deer. My hunting load was 90 grains 2f Goex with a pillow ticked .49 RB. Both of these deer were shot in the same boiler room kill zone at the same distance and both ran considerable distances requiring tracking through the bush. On the second deer if there had not been a fresh blanket of snow fall that morning, I would have lost him for sure. Even with the snow, I had a very hard time finding a blood trail. Fannning out in a circle I discovered a tiny drop of blood several yards out and fanning from there another 5 or 6 yards leading me to a line to follow into very thick cover. As I persued this line the blood slowly increased from small drops to a small spray to a wide red carpet. Needless to say anymore, that was the last year I would take the 50 out hunting. I recently built a 54 cal Hawken halfstock percussion rifle that is a hefty 11 1\2 lb. brute. I do most of my deer hunting from a brush pile ground blind, so I don't have issues with carrying it too much. So far the 54 has knocked over 1 deer, in it's tracks,  at 60 yards out, using 90 grains 2f Goex and a pillow ticked .53 RB.  This was the first hunting season for this rifle but out on the target range I found it made a good shooter out of me at the 100 yd. line. Better than any rifle I've ever shot before!
« Last Edit: March 10, 2013, 02:23:37 PM by Majorjoel »
Joel Hall

Crossed Arrows

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Re: .50 cal, .54 cal or .58 cal roundball preference
« Reply #45 on: March 11, 2013, 01:17:09 AM »
Good comments from all of you and I'm looking for more.  I never get tired of firsthand  hunting results.

One common thread is that you've got to hit them in the right place.

Majorjoel - Heavy guns, if they are well-balanced, will generally help in accuracy.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: .50 cal, .54 cal or .58 cal roundball preference
« Reply #46 on: March 11, 2013, 07:00:42 AM »
This is a very interesting and informative topic that I have really enjoyed hearing about all of your experiences in the hunting fields. I have been using muzzle loaders only for all of my hunting needs for about the last 12 years or so. In persuit of the northern Michigan white tail deer, I have had some very unusual experiences regarding calibers that make no real logical sense to me but thought I would share them. The first rifle I used to hunt with was a 45 cal. half stock flinter that I had built. It had a 35" barrel of unknown make. It liked 80 grains 3f Goex with a pillow ticked 44 cal. RB.  With 80 grains it drove tacks, with less, it was all over the place. I used this rifle for 4 seasons and took 4 deer with it. Each was shot within 40-60 yards and all dropped dead within their tracks on the spot. All deer were hit through the heart\lungs. I then built a 50 cal. fullstock using a swamped barrel 38" long.  With this rifle I hunted  for 2 seasons taking 2 deer. My hunting load was 90 grains 2f Goex with a pillow ticked .49 RB. Both of these deer were shot in the same boiler room kill zone at the same distance and both ran considerable distances requiring tracking through the bush. On the second deer if there had not been a fresh blanket of snow fall that morning, I would have lost him for sure. Even with the snow, I had a very hard time finding a blood trail. Fannning out in a circle I discovered a tiny drop of blood several yards out and fanning from there another 5 or 6 yards leading me to a line to follow into very thick cover. As I persued this line the blood slowly increased from small drops to a small spray to a wide red carpet. Needless to say anymore, that was the last year I would take the 50 out hunting. I recently built a 54 cal Hawken halfstock percussion rifle that is a hefty 11 1\2 lb. brute. I do most of my deer hunting from a brush pile ground blind, so I don't have issues with carrying it too much. So far the 54 has knocked over 1 deer, in it's tracks,  at 60 yards out, using 90 grains 2f Goex and a pillow ticked .53 RB.  This was the first hunting season for this rifle but out on the target range I found it made a good shooter out of me at the 100 yd. line. Better than any rifle I've ever shot before!

I suspect that less than 5% of the deer I have shot or seen shot (100+) have dropped at the shot no matter what they were shot with. Most run 40-50 yards some much farther. If they do not in most cases the spine or brain is struck or shocked heavily enough to incapacitate the deer. Some very fast and frangible moderns, like a 25-06 with an 87 gr. Will drop deer very quickly but they also ruin a lot of meat. If hunting at close ranges with a good rest a head shot is an option. But WTs are nervous and may not hod their head still for long. High shoulder shots are pretty good but cost meat. So I go for heart lung and let them run....

Dan
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Re: .50 cal, .54 cal or .58 cal roundball preference
« Reply #47 on: March 11, 2013, 08:34:30 AM »
I have killed enough deer to feed an army... I like a shot just as the deer steps forward place it right in the heart and watch it quiver..... The can't take much of that....