Author Topic: triggers? (Read 15362 times)

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #25 on:** February 20, 2013, 12:49:07 AM »

Paul is correct in that the rear trigger has to have enough travel to trip the sear.

With the lock set, and the triggers UNSET, you should just be able to jiggle the set trigger a few thousandths back and forth. This would be the free travel of the rear trigger between the tip of its trigger spring and the sear bar.

heinz · « **Reply #26 on:** February 20, 2013, 04:12:23 AM »

Acer, you are letting the cat out of the bag on the proper way to do set triggers. NO one ever believes it.

bgf · « **Reply #27 on:** February 20, 2013, 05:14:26 AM »

HHorse,
I would like to see a picture too. The others are probably right that it is just worn, but I have read about multi- (more than 2) lever triggers on Schuetzen rifles, and wonder if there isn't maybe an off chance it is one of those. People will go to extreme lengths in competition sometimes, so maybe it is something like that.

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #28 on:** February 20, 2013, 09:10:17 AM »

You guys seem to be forgetting that this lock has no half cock. The lock would normally not be able to be cocked without first setting the trigger. But, whether by accident or design, a light pull on the rear trigger allows the lock to come to fullcock. An additional squeeze on the rear trigger sets the trigger.

Hungry Horse

Bob Roller · « **Reply #29 on:** February 20, 2013, 04:06:23 PM »

Acer is right.The rear trigger should be a "floater" that pops up,hits the sear,fires the lock and returns to its
unset position.This mandates a single position tumbler like a percussion can use or either flint or percussion with
a "fly"to cam the sear over the half cock position.
The trigger described by HH must be installed or adjusted in such a way that allows the rear trigger to barely compress the sear
against its spring and the light squeeze on the rear trigger will free the sear to engage a small amount thus making a light single
trigger pull on the front trigger.This must be at least a two lever trigger or as mentioned.a multi lever Schuetzen trigger.

Bob Roller

Paul Griffith · « **Reply #30 on:** February 20, 2013, 04:16:50 PM »

You're absolutely right that with no fly the gun wouldn't function set up by the acceptable standards of today. If you set it up to trip the sear with the over travel of the rear trigger it would almost certainly drop into halfcock as opposed to hitting the nipple or frizzen.

I'm probably in the minority but have never completely agreed with the way this is looked at these days. The accepted setup where the hammer can be set without setting the triggers is of course the proper way, & prehaps the best way. But a setup where absolutely nothing happens when the hammer is pulled back, by that I mean no clicks (audible or physical) during the pulling of the hammer unless the trigger is set isn't all bad. Where the problem arises is a set up where the sear clicks & the hand feels things happening & the brain gets the message that the sear is engaged. So you let go of the hammer & the gun goes off.

Paul

Majorjoel · « **Reply #31 on:** February 20, 2013, 04:45:09 PM »

On a rifle that I built a couple of years ago using a deluxe siler flintlock with fly, double set triggers by Davis if I remember correctly, the shooting set up is as 1Chunker describes. If you do not set the rear trigger, pulling the hammer back gets absolutely no resistance all the way back. Free as silk with no trigger interference. You must set the rear trigger and the hammer back to half cock engages with a solid click. It is a SAFE position as pressure on either trigger at this point will not release the hammer forward into the frizzen. When you pull back to full cock you get another solid click. Then just the lightest pull on the front trigger (set screw adjustment) sets it off with a great spark. The mechanism of this rifle works flawlessly as I described with no loose or rattling triggers when on the go. In all of my years in this muzzleloading sport I have run across many dozens of rifles requiring this same trigger procedure and have concluded it is just another one of the many little quirks in the learning curve of muzzle loading shooting. Now I hear that this is a "broken" feature that needs repair and attention. I have also built a couple of rifles with DST's that do work as Acer describes. Honestly I do not know the difference between what I did right in these cases! In very careful reading of the details on proper trigger function and repair for such to get it to function as Acer describes......I find myself lost here. I just do not understand what should be done.

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #32 on:** February 20, 2013, 05:09:35 PM »

O.K. I got the triggers out, and this is what I found. They are a standard double phase double set triggers in all aspects save one. The rear trigger bar has two notches at the juncture of the firing trigger engagement point, instead of one. This allows the rear bar to be held down far enough for the lock to engage the full cock notch on the tumbler, but since the trigger spring isn't compressed yet, the trigger isn't set. The second notch compresses the spring, and allows the set trigger to function as we are accustom to seeing. This thing must have been a bear to set up for the first time. Notch placements, and depth, along with spring tension, and backlash, would all come into play.

Hungry Horse

Paul Griffith · « **Reply #33 on:** February 21, 2013, 12:53:27 AM »

So is the front trigger in exactly the same position in the first notch & second notch? Or is the lever of the front trigger higher in the first notch?

I agree with you that the setup is no accident. If he's doing what I'm thinking, it's beautiful.

bgf · « **Reply #34 on:** February 21, 2013, 01:50:37 AM »

Quote from: Majorjoel on February 20, 2013, 04:45:09 PM

On a rifle that I built a couple of years ago using a deluxe siler flintlock with fly, double set triggers by Davis if I remember correctly, the shooting set up is as 1Chunker describes. If you do not set the rear trigger, pulling the hammer back gets absolutely no resistance all the way back. Free as silk with no trigger interference. You must set the rear trigger and the hammer back to half cock engages with a solid click. It is a SAFE position as pressure on either trigger at this point will not release the hammer forward into the frizzen. When you pull back to full cock you get another solid click. Then just the lightest pull on the front trigger (set screw adjustment) sets it off with a great spark. The mechanism of this rifle works flawlessly as I described with no loose or rattling triggers when on the go. In all of my years in this muzzleloading sport I have run across many dozens of rifles requiring this same trigger procedure and have concluded it is just another one of the many little quirks in the learning curve of muzzle loading shooting. Now I hear that this is a "broken" feature that needs repair and attention. I have also built a couple of rifles with DST's that do work as Acer describes. Honestly I do not know the difference between what I did right in these cases! In very careful reading of the details on proper trigger function and repair for such to get it to function as Acer describes......I find myself lost here. I just do not understand what should be done.

Joel, The TOW catalog has a page article(with drawings) that explains setting things up pretty well. If you don't have a copy, PM me. I think "broken" may be harsh, how about "sub-optimal" or "of potential concern in some situations"

?

Majorjoel · « **Reply #35 on:** February 21, 2013, 06:52:34 PM »

Thanks bgf, sorry for my rant yesterday! DST Triggers have been a bug a boo with me for as long as I have messed with them. Put that with one too many cups of coffee and I can get pretty loud about the subject. I have studied about everything I could get my hands on. My conclusion regarding the rifle I built is all about clearance space. It is a very dainty piece with no room between the lock sear and the rear (set) trigger post when said post is unset. The trigger that I used is from Track of the Wolf and is a #TR-DST-4. A double lever DST. I once thought about filing down the rear trigger and the sear bar itself but realized that the little added space was not sufficient to improve trigger function. So I just polished the bearing surfaces instead. I do have an old TOF catalog but see no pages about installation tips. I would be interested in seeing what you have. Much appreciated!

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #36 on:** February 21, 2013, 09:45:10 PM »

If more room is needed between sear bar and DST, the sear bar can be heated and bent up.

Dphariss · « **Reply #37 on:** February 22, 2013, 04:36:49 AM »

Quote from: Majorjoel on February 21, 2013, 06:52:34 PM

Thanks bgf, sorry for my rant yesterday! DST Triggers have been a bug a boo with me for as long as I have messed with them. Put that with one too many cups of coffee and I can get pretty loud about the subject. I have studied about everything I could get my hands on. My conclusion regarding the rifle I built is all about clearance space. It is a very dainty piece with no room between the lock sear and the rear (set) trigger post when said post is unset. The trigger that I used is from Track of the Wolf and is a #TR-DST-4. A double lever DST. I once thought about filing down the rear trigger and the sear bar itself but realized that the little added space was not sufficient to improve trigger function. So I just polished the bearing surfaces instead. I do have an old TOF catalog but see no pages about installation tips. I would be interested in seeing what you have. Much appreciated!

Parts as purchased often need to be modified to work properly.
Set triggers especially.
The only ones I have bought that needed no work are two sets of Bob Roller Hawken triggers from the 70s I found at a gun show about 3 years ago.

Dan

Shootrj2003 · « **Reply #38 on:** February 23, 2013, 06:53:46 AM »

Why would you have a trigger that can be set(a a SET trigger) adjusted in such a manner that it can not be cocked WITHOUT having it set?this is not adjusted properly.What if you want to fire it without being set?And if you don't ever want to ,why have a set trigger?A set trigger should ,if properly adjusted,be capable of cocking wether set or unset,what's more if properly and safely adjusted it should also be able to be set wether in the fired position(cock down in the pan)at half cock or at full cock, did I misread something ?please correct me if I did.

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #39 on:** February 23, 2013, 06:25:14 PM »

Shootrj2003;

Your position is perfectly logical when talking about a modern muzzleloading gun made in the twentieth, or twenty first, century, from modern parts. However, a gun made in the 19th century for a specific purpose like bench target shooting, maybe not so much. I reiterate, this gun has no half cock notch on the tumbler. Its not broken off, It simply was made without one. I own two such guns, and have seen dozens more. Why would you need a half cock on a gun you aren't going to carry loaded? The short answer is you don't, so the old timers didn't go through all the bother of adding this feature. All the other examples I have viewed with locks of this type, have had single phase double set triggers, that must be set before the gun can be brought to full cock. This particular gun has double phase double set triggers, that had the gun been built with better lock, with a half cock, and a fly, would function just like most of our modern replicas. Why this double phase trigger was used, and why it was either built, or modified to fire unset, I have no clue. I suspect that the triggers can be set so sensitive that the builder was afraid of accidental discharge, and incorporated the modifications necessary to add a degree of safety, while preparing to fire.

Hungry Horse

Paul Griffith · « **Reply #40 on:** February 23, 2013, 08:46:43 PM »

I missed that part as far as it having no half cock notch. And I agree that I've seen old stuff simular. There just wasn't the "rules" we deal with these days. What I was wondering about is that by hitting the first notch of the triggers if it adjusted the front trigger to a proper height to trip the sear???

As far as the concept of no half cock at all. There's a bunch of underhammer & mule ear actions with none.

greybeard · « **Reply #41 on:** February 23, 2013, 09:50:25 PM »

[
There are easy ways to get triggers to do their job properly.
Measure,with a depth guage the depth to the sear in the inlet.Example from the bottom of the stock is 1/2 inch.
Now measure the height of the back trigger at the Y of the two triggers.
If they measure .547 then they are .047 too high. There are three fixes.
1.grind a recess on the rear trigger arm and reharden if necessary.(see pic)
2. stone or file a bit off the toe if the mainspring, repolish if necessary.
3. stone or file a wee bit off the shelf that the mainspring sits on.
This is how I adjust triggers that are too high. I refuse to bend the sear on a good quality lock. Just me. I hope this is of some help.
Bob Reader.

Shootrj2003 · « **Reply #42 on:** February 24, 2013, 01:10:44 AM »

Ok ,I misunderstood or overlooked the fact that they were old and I am far from a trigger expert,I just happened to recently go through a modern DST and so everything is really fresh in my mind about them as long as we're discussing T/C or Lyman (i spent two weeks talking to other guys here and on other sites before I got it straight in my head)but as far as a few modern ones and almost any old ones I 'm learning as I go and know but one thing about all triggers and that is we should make sure they work properly and as safe as they are designed to be,which on older ones,can be a toss up,due to thier being inventions of each gunsmith as he saw fit.

Majorjoel · « **Reply #43 on:** February 26, 2013, 03:32:47 PM »

I would like to thank everyone that took the time and shared their knowledge about proper DST installation! After considerable study and renewed patience, I was able to get my flintlock rifle triggers to operate as advertised....lock and triggers in harmony in any and all settings! After filing away the maximum amount of the rear trigger contact area, I added a small shim under the forward trigger plate. This gave me the needed space to facilitate proper function. I guess an old horse can learn a few new tricks now and again, thanks to the support of you'all!

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Author Topic: triggers? (Read 15362 times)

Paul Griffith

Paul Griffith

Shootrj2003

Paul Griffith

greybeard

Shootrj2003